Soprema (peel and stick) AND Platon, good idea?
Last Post 20 Nov 2007 09:35 AM by Cattail Bill. 21 Replies.
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ColdBuilderUser is Offline
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04 Nov 2007 08:39 AM
I am currently looking at waterproofing an 8' below grade ICF foundation.  I am considering using Soprema peel and stick membrane and Platon or DeltaMS dimple coating.  I was wondering if this might be overkill?  The foundation will have a french drain system with 1' of washed stone fill and gravel back fill for the rest.  The soil on the property has a fairly high clay content with a mix of shale rock.

Outside of the extra cost, I was wondering if there are any potential issues with using both systems?  E.g., dimples on Platon compressing into the Soprema and losing gap space? Or perhaps penetration of the Soprema by the Platon fasteners allowing moisture in?  I really have no idea, just want to avoid any potiential issues with 2 systems not designed to work together.

Another issue I am worried about is the application of an peel and stick membrane in cold weather.  It will almost certainly be below the 10 C that the manufacturer recommends, should I avoid using it because of this?

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QuantumUser is Offline
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04 Nov 2007 11:05 AM
Nah, it's overkill. A super way, if you don't mind the cost, and no gotchas. But it is just fine to parge with cementious waterproofing before the dimpled. Use peel-n-stick at the base/footing though, if you did not do a monopour.

If DeltaMS Clear costs extra where you are, just use Platon, because the peel-n-stick will cover up the firring strips anyway. Most manufacturers make two versions of peel-n-stick: warm-weather and cold-weather.
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04 Nov 2007 10:02 PM

I like to use System Platon and when the wall is poured on a slab on grade I use a waterstop such as Synkoflex between the slab and the wall. The waterstop expands to fill and seal any pores when it gets wet.

I also put the peel & stick "boot" at the wall/footing (or slab) interface as mentioned in the previous post. However, I'm not so sure the "boot" is such a good idea anymore. My reasoning is that if the water is traveling down through the airgap created by the dimpled membrane, there is a good chance some of the water will find the joints in the forms and use those joints as the path of least resistance on its way toward the footing drain. With the "boot" membrane at the bottom foot or so of the wall any water traveling down the form joints becomes trapped behind the membrane and could end up inside the building.

BNC

walltechUser is Offline
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05 Nov 2007 07:36 AM
Somprema has the worst adhesion of any peel and stick I've seen so be care full with that one. As far as peel and stick goes for a total wall waterproof-er, you can bet if water ever gets behind it, it's coming in. If one was concerned with double waterproofing I would spray and then dimple.

As far as the boot goes I'd agree with bnc above that your looking for trouble with a boot.

Dave
QuantumUser is Offline
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05 Nov 2007 07:53 AM
Sooo, better to do without?

I don't worry about this anyway, as I monopour.
ColdBuilderUser is Offline
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05 Nov 2007 12:56 PM
Thanks for the quick responses.  I am going to go with just the Platon system I think.  Most of the information I have gathered suggest that adding a peel and stick underneath is likely more of a risk than a benefit.  After all, the whole point of the Paton or Delta systems is to let the water out.  Going to start installing it this afternoon hopefully.
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05 Nov 2007 02:29 PM
Posted By ColdBuilder on 11/05/2007 12:56 PM
I am going to go with just the Platon system I think. 

That's my plan when I build in a few weeks. I'm planning on using Styro Industries Flexcoat or TuffCoat II below the siding and overlap the Platon a few inches, then run the Platon all the way down over the footer. It should bend around the footer reasonably easily based on what I've had my hands on. If it's too stiff I figure a heat gun will help it bend! I will have a crawl space, not basement.

The styro on the ICF is damp proof so I'm not sure there's any real benefit to putting anything over it under the Platon, except maybe in really wet soil.


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05 Nov 2007 03:44 PM
If just a crawl-space wall, true, no need for parging. In fact, no need for Platon.

But if a basement or other habitable space you need the parging. Do not depend on the EPS for waterproofing as it has at minimum 3% permeability, most likely more.

Can't use petroleum-based parging, as it melts EPS. We use cementious trowel-on waterproofing, as used with EIFS systems.
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05 Nov 2007 04:49 PM
Posted By Quantum on 11/05/2007 3:44 PM
If just a crawl-space wall, true, no need for parging. In fact, no need for Platon.

How do you cover the wall area between the siding and ground? If not parging, then what? Code, and James Hardie, require siding to be a minimum of 6" above grade. Platon instructions say to put the top edge at grade. ICF forms cannot remain exposed to sun. There's other stuff out there, but parging looks to be the best all around choice for this region of the wall. Actually, this is one area of ICF construction that all the mfrs are short on information as to what to do.

One ICF builder I talked to said he puts Hardiplank flat on the wall in the ground to siding region, but the local JH rep was emphatic in saying Hardie does not condone this. There's no warranty on any HardiPlank that touches ground.

You say no need for Platon on a crawl space wall. What do you put on the foam for protection? Nothing? That runs counter to all the mfr instructions I've seen.


Even a retired engineer can build a house successfully w/ GBT help!
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05 Nov 2007 06:01 PM
Oh true parging above-ground. EPS is destroyed by UV. But underground if leakage is not a concern... nothing.
Ian with ICF BuildersUser is Offline
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05 Nov 2007 09:13 PM

The EPS of the ICF forms is in no way to be construed as either waterproof or an acceptable dampproofing.  Furthermore, the foam should never be left uncoated or uncovered when contact with the native soil is intended....this is just fuel to the fire in inviting termites, ants and mice to move in.

Even with the use of the dimpled membranes such as platon or Delta MS, one should thoroughly coat or apply peel and stick the foam as once again, you are only creating a new home for the above.

If one were to apply the dimpled membrane and not apply any sort of damp proofing material or waterproofing material on the foam yet instead believe that a "boot" will provide anything but the option of guaranteed trouble is mis-informed...in fact, the "boot" will insure that any water or condensation that could build up on the concrete or EPS behind the dimpled membrane that reaches a saturation point and is to run down (yes, gravity does still work below grade), this moisture will more than likely get trapped behind the "boot" and eventually make it through the wall....regardless of a monolithic pour or not.  This moisture only has to find one plastic, metal or foam web to follow across the wall to the other side.

Another reason to waterproof behind dimpled membranes is in the case of a basement that is not well draining to daylight....if water is able to "pool" such as in the event of a hard fast rain, the drain may not keep up with the amount of water moving downward...if this is the case, then the water level will go up the "air gap" and potentially flood the basement...(just like rivers flood over their banks, storm drains cannot handle the volumes and flow)  although this may be a temporary or a one time happening, it is a violation of law to not disclose the flooding of the basement in the event of a sale...furthermore, this is a good bet for not getting underwriting on insurance for basement water intrusion.

If Soprema (never touched the brand) is not very pliable or sticky, perhaps look at some of the other manufacturers such as Polyguard that produce "LT" or low temperature products and waterbased primers that create a super tacky film on the EPS.

Most all waterproofing or damp proofing products specifically state that they are not to be used where UV exposure is possible and most all siding products do not recommend application within 6" of grade.  Two main reasons for this:

One:  The siding material is not suited to withstanding such conditions..

Two:  You are creating a great path for those termites, ants and any other insect etc. to make their way into the foam walls and eventually into the structure without any means of detection.

If the basecoat of an EIFS system is utilized for the area between the waterproofing below grade and the siding above, this material must be approved for such use.  Regular EIFS basecoat is not recommended for this application.  However, some "FLEXBASE" type are "OK" for this application, but again, these are not intended to be used as a finish as they deteriorate over time if exposed.  Additionally, if you apply this type of coating down to the dimpled membrane without any sort of damp proofing or waterproofing behind the dimpled membrane, then again, all you are potentially doing is creating a nice concealed way for termites and other critters to move up the side of the building undetected.

The use of a termite flashing is probably the best thing to use at or near grade so that you do not create a path to the roof trusses for any insect.  This should be common sense as a minimum.

When it comes to waterproofing, one thing is for certain...if you don't do everything correct and everything you can think of to prohibit the entrance of water or moisture, you can pretty much guarantee that the signs of moisture intrusion will show up just when you don't want it.

ColdBuilderUser is Offline
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06 Nov 2007 06:23 AM
Interesting points Ian. Luckily I live far enough north (and on an island) that termites, wood eating ants and mice are not really an issue. However the idea of a heavy rain overwhleming the drain system is a worry. I am well above the water table however the foundation of the house essentially sits on bedrock and the water really has no where to go but out the french drain or build up around the house. I am concerned however with traping water behind a peel and stick and getting dampness in the basement. Part of the reason the dimple system seemed good is that water seems to get in everywhere eventually, having somewhere for it to go appears to be a good system.

I didn't do a monolith pour, however building code in my area requires washed stone inside the foundation up to level with the footing top (10' deep). On top of that I will have 2" cladmate insulation and then my floor slab, so the cold join between my footing and walls will actually be below the concrete floor
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06 Nov 2007 09:31 AM
Thank you for sharing your strongly-held beliefs Ian, most of which are correct.

However I wish you would come up here and convince our building inspectors that no wall-to-footer membrane should be used. While you're at it, please lobby the manufacturers of dimpled and peel/stick that it's not needed as well.
Ian with ICF BuildersUser is Offline
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06 Nov 2007 12:25 PM
"However I wish you would come up here and convince our building inspectors that no wall-to-footer membrane should be used. While you're at it, please lobby the manufacturers of dimpled and peel/stick that it's not needed as well."---Quantum

Why? this is contrary to what I said. Let me try to explain this again in simple terms: I would not use dimpled by itself alone. I would use as a minimum, a dampproofing sealer but would go with a peel and stick THEN the dimpled membrane. top to bottom, not just a strip to seal the bottom, or a "boot". Where do I say NOT to use these products as you insinuate in your post?

Wall to footer membrane only is useful in plain poured walls. On a plain poured wall, you have the ability to seal the cold joint, Not so with ICF, wall to footer membrane or "boot" is not smart since the "boot" is not sealing anything because the foam is not sealed top to bottom. (this is common sense) Water can move freely between the foam and concrete down and get behind the boot, then leak into the living space. Furthermore, even with the slab poured later, over the footing, water can and does wick up into the living space....

The second part of your reply doesn't warrant a response
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06 Nov 2007 01:15 PM
Ian, you tell these people to not use a 'boot', and I am telling you that this is required by local inspectors and is recommended practice by the manufacturers. I am telling you that this is required by local inspectors and is recommended practice by the manufacturers.

No, dimpled is not enough, as I've preached here for some time.

Ian with ICF BuildersUser is Offline
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06 Nov 2007 02:12 PM
Ok, look at the situation another way. Which manufacturers are demanding the use of the boot?? ICF companies or Waterproofing companies or Dimpled membrane companies?

Does the reason for NOT applying only the boot on an ICF wall make sense? (again, to reiterate, I believe that the entire wall should be covered). My thought would be to first point out the logic behind the statement that it is not a correct thing to do. If you post the manufacturer's info, some quick calls to them should be able to clarify the reasoning why this should not be done ON ICF. Then, with that clarification and details, one could take this to the building official and present the case. I can understand that this is a requirement on a plain concrete wall, but on ICF, it is a mistake.....now AGAIN, I think it is a mistake to use only the dimpled membrane and no other coating or peel and stick. As in politics, "Evil people rule when good people do nothing".....chances are, none of the players understand the issue, they are reading something that is out of context (probably not pertaining to ICF) and saying that it is the rule...If this is not the case, then perhaps we can all learn something.
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06 Nov 2007 02:54 PM
I have a job to go bid so do not have time to look this up.

But your recommendation against the 'boot' lies in the presumption of inferior material. Sure, for cheap materials applied improperly, water will infiltrate. But if 3M or suchlike adhesive on the peel-n-stick, applied properly, problems should be minimal.

In any case it goes ithout saying that parging should be run down and over the 'boot' and across the horizontal footer.

That said, I don't do this. I use fastfoot with the radical wraparound monopour method. Parge the fastfoot material right in (cementitious waterproofing), simulating an EIFS reinforced composite.
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16 Nov 2007 10:04 AM
Delta MS manufacturer states that a peel and stick is not required. After reading this thread I am concerned that I did not apply this. They also told me to apply the dimpled product straight down to the footer and not over the footer. I have an interior and exterior french drain. It has been a year but have not had any problems with leakage into my finished basement. God I hope I never do. Now I wish I would have applied the peel and stick. But you know how it goes, building is very expensive and adding an additional $1000 to this area takes it away from somewhere else. I built a home with ICF and spray foam insulation and used Delta MS and thought I was taking the correct steps especially when the Delta MS rep said it was not needed!
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16 Nov 2007 06:50 PM
Peel-stick + DeltaMS Clear is overkill. Normally you'd want a membrane of some sort on the foam like Blueskin and then DMSC.

But you are substantially OK, assuming it was applied properly. The dimpled is a substantial barrier to moisture, then the air-space gives relief to hydrostatic pressure. Sure the foam is 3% pervious, but your system beats all Hell out of many shoddy conventionally cast basement waterproofing I've seen.
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16 Nov 2007 07:30 PM
Posted By Quantum on 11/16/2007 6:50 PM
Normally you'd want a membrane of some sort on the foam like Blueskin and then DMSC.


Which Blueskin is OK for styrofoam? A search on Bakor website for ICF, insulated concrete form, or styrofoam, comes up zero. One would think if one of their products is good for ICF they'd have some obvious info about it.

Even a retired engineer can build a house successfully w/ GBT help!
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