Price per panel?
Last Post 01 Oct 2007 07:51 AM by mmacgowa. 16 Replies.
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patrick.ogradyUser is Offline
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23 Sep 2007 09:29 PM
One thing I haven't seen in the research I"ve done here is cost per panel. I see cost per square foot. But what I would like to now is how much a person would pay for a 4x8x6" panel
Dick MillsUser is Offline
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23 Sep 2007 09:56 PM
Patrick,

I may be wrong, but when I see psf prices, I assume that most of the time it is for square foot of wall (sip) panel. Here is one site that lists their psf prices:

http://greenwall.us/files/GreenWallInc_PriceList.pdf

There are others, but they generally are relatively close in price.  And to get to a panel price, you simply multiply by the size of the panel (like 32 square feet per ).

Dick Mills
BenMillerUser is Offline
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23 Sep 2007 10:17 PM
I think this question is akin to asking what the price is for a piece of 1x8x12 oak. Is it flat sawn, quarter sawn, red or white, where do you live for shipping purposes, would you like it stained, varnished, surfaced with 220 grit, or your name engraved in it? It's a really easy question to ask, I know because I did it myself 4 months ago when I first started getting bids together for my house. Here is what I found:

I just recieved the bill for my panels. I have 248 linear ft of 6" thick, 8' tall wall, plus two gable ends 32' wide by 14' tall. The total without shipping was $11,400. There's 23 windows, which I had the factory cut in, and various accessories like glue, screws, and a pocket cutter totaling about $600 included in that price above. I haven't taken the time to figure out a square ft, linear ft, per panel, per R value...etc (you get the idea).
I asked the designer if he's been able to come up with an accurate average (I figured he's seen way more jobs than I have and can average a much larger sample). He said he tried once and the numbers came up all over the board. It all depends on window placement, how the scrap cutouts work out, etc. For instance, the cut off of my gable panels were able to be flipped and complete the lower portion of the gable. Also, my print was designed with a little thought towards the common 8'x8' SIP panel size (it's 32'x30' two stories). Had I spaced my windows on 4' increments the savings would have been higher.
Interestingly enough, the original price estimate was $3000 higher than the eventual bill (kudos to my SIP manufacturer for passing that cost saving on to me as I'd agreed to the higher price). So, maybe the designer does have a real rough number that he bids off of, but seeings as it was almost 20% too high is not accurate enough to publish. Also of note, I had 2 companies bid the same print and they were within $700 of each other, leading me to believe there is an industry standard kept somewhat under wraps.
I don't know if this is helpful, but I had the same question 4 months ago. One way to find out is call your SIP provider and order a panel 8'x8'x6". No windows cut in, you pick up the panels and pay cash. Let me know what you find out! :)
Dick MillsUser is Offline
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23 Sep 2007 11:25 PM
Ben,

I just did the math, and it looks like you have roughly 2,432 square feet of panels, and that their quote was based on $6/square foot for roughly $14,600. But then that they discounted the price by the amount of the panels that they cut out for window and door openings, which I would guess come to something like 532 square feet.

And I would think that this is the way that everyone hopes that SIPs suppliers would handle their pricing, but that no one (myself included) actually expects that they will. I think it is great, but for rough estimation purposes, I always think that it is better to over-estimate (by using the gross estimate), than to underestimate. But that may just be me.

Dick Mills
Dennis NelsonUser is Offline
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26 Sep 2007 03:06 PM

I think Ben has it,

Often I may get a set of plans with the question 'How much?'

My response is similar, 'What color is the carpet?'

Unless the structure is designed with stock panel sizes in mind, you can expect additional costs in fabrication, scrap, etc...

Some manufacturers may provide savings for 'stock' panel orders, this of course leaves the customer with fabricating in the field & disposing of the waste.

Try calling a couple of manufacturers for just a price per square foot.
Does this price per square foot include additional services other than material costs?
Is there any benefit or savings per sq ft from placing a stock panel order opposed to using the manufacturers design services?
Will there be any saving in material costs if you provide a set of shop drawings and/or fabrication drawings?

Either way, I hope your cost analysis works to your favor.
Best of luck,

Dennis
PanelCraftersUser is Offline
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26 Sep 2007 04:00 PM
Posted By Dennis Nelson on 09/26/2007 3:06 PM
Unless the structure is designed with stock panel sizes in mind, you can expect additional costs in fabrication, scrap, etc

What are stock panels? The manufacturers that I've worked with, custom manufacture the panels for each project. They don't have an inventory of panels sitting around. This also minimizes waste.

I do realize that there are some manufacturers that do make 'stock' panels, but I do know for sure it's not all of them.
....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building?
Dennis NelsonUser is Offline
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26 Sep 2007 05:04 PM

Yup,

Like you said, some have em, some dont.

Stock panels, like 4x8's 4x10's 8x8's, etc...

Some manufacturers fab all panels from 8x24's (this requires panel utilization)

Dennis
Dick MillsUser is Offline
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26 Sep 2007 07:20 PM
Dennis,

I have the same question. Ben's example above seems to indicate that you are exactly wrong. It very much appears that they initially estimated his project as "stock (full) panels", and that when they invoiced him for the fabricated panels they adjusted the price down by the amount of the removed portions of the panels.

Dick Mills
Dennis NelsonUser is Offline
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26 Sep 2007 08:19 PM
Hey Dick,
I dont disagree,
It's just the first I heard of the manufacturer picking up the tab for the wasted material on fabricated panels.

Is this typical?
What manuf. is it?

From what I've witnessed, estimators typically run numbers on 2' increments.
Just for argument sake, Is this manufacturer going to quote the same cost per sq ft of material for a 'non fabricated' 8x8 panel opposed to a non fabricated 8x22? 
Assuming they would both come from a 8x24 jumbo, the 8x8 would have a larger piece of scrap that could possibly be used on another application. Where the 8x22 scrap is not as usefull. (unless someone needs some filler panels, wouldnt it remain in a inventory?)

So when you do recieve the product, does the number match the proposed bid? Or does the purchaser of the 8x22 end up picking up the tab for the waste?


Note: by non fabricated, I mean no window or door cut outs, or lumber install.

Thanks Dick,
Dennis
Dick MillsUser is Offline
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26 Sep 2007 11:54 PM
Dennis,

I am really just guestimating about it, but it looks like they took the actual square footage of walls and just applied a price per square foot multiple to come up with the original estimate - rather than what I suggested as "stock (full) panels". But that aside, I agree. I was shocked to hear about his experience.

Ben, if you don't mind my asking, who is supplying your SIPs?

Dick Mills
BobTheBuilderUser is Offline
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29 Sep 2007 10:01 AM
The quandry I am not finding is that I am looking to build a Timberframe house and
a number of timber frame companies seem to want to include or "provide" the
SIP panels.  Sure makes some sense that the guys building the frames would
be good to size out the panels, but on the other hand is seems like they are
just using this as a way to mark up the SIPs.

Who does the utimate sizing of the panels?  I can eventually provide
a very good dimensional CAD drawing.

But in the end, I want to find the best source for buying panels
since they are turning out to be a HUGE part of the cost of materials.


PanelCraftersUser is Offline
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29 Sep 2007 12:03 PM
Posted By BobTheBuilder on 09/29/2007 10:01 AMWho does the utimate sizing of the panels?  I can eventually provide
a very good dimensional CAD drawing.

But in the end, I want to find the best source for buying panels
since they are turning out to be a HUGE part of the cost of materials.

Sizing? Usually the SIP manufacturer designs the SIP portion of the structure. However, since the panels in your application would not be fully structural, you could probably save $$$ by buying raw panels and cutting them onsite.
....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building?
cmkavalaUser is Offline
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30 Sep 2007 09:59 AM
BobtheBuilder;

I agree with panels crafters about saving money by cutting in field. We always use raw panels for cost savings, time savings ( can get raw panels in 2 weeks) and for flexibilty for onsite variables, such as foundation mistakes, changes, etc.
Chris Kavala
info@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS
FL. Lic # CBC036455, GA Lic. RLCO000624, LA Lic. # CL33845
Dennis NelsonUser is Offline
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30 Sep 2007 01:43 PM

Trying to keep the forum subject alive,

I have to disagree with fabricating on site.
If you are in an area where weather plays a factor, having the panels fabricated in a controlled environment is critical.
Especially if you are using a manufacturer that doesn’t charge you for scrap!

When fabricating on site, you may lose points with the neighbors when you cover their house with EPS particles.

When you fabricate at the manufacturer, excess clean foam scrap is also typically put back into recycling (better for the environment)

 

When fabricating on site, you are forced to use the ‘chainsaw flatbar’ opposed to CNC machines. I’m pretty good with the chainsaw, but no matter how good you are, it always looks like a team of rats were knawing on it. Where CNC machines will be as accurate as the information put into them.

 

If your manufacturer provides fabrication services, be sure during your plan review that you include every small detail that will allow for a speedy installation. Remember. One of the primary benefits of SIPs is the speed of construction. Not very speedy when you have to fabricate on site and clean up.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only benefit of fabricating on site, is not having to wait as long to get your panels.

Dennis
cmkavalaUser is Offline
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30 Sep 2007 02:49 PM

Dennis;  we will aggree to dis-agree because of the following points

 

  1. our panels are steel skinned,  unaffected by weather conditions
  2. We make our own cut-list drawings with panel utilization a priority to elminate waste. Any window or door cut-outs generate recylable steel and foam - still environmentally friendly
  3. our specialty saws cut just 1/32" wide and do not produce excessive EPS particles
  4. Yes I have experienced the chainsaw massacre with OSB, another good reason to use to steel skins is the coil stock is generated from recycled cars (about 2 per average house order) as opposed to killing more trees for OSB chips, top& bottom plates, wood splines, bucks, etc.
  5. CNC will be as accurate as the information put into them "garage-in / garbage-out. Factory mistakes can seriously delay a project while awaiting authorized solotions to the problem
  6. Pre-cutting adds six -weeks to delivery time, where is the time savings in that?
  7. eave walls and roof panels are orderd to specific lengths, so you are only talking about gable wall cuts and small window and door cut-outs. This only adds about 6 more total jobsite time.. But give the owner (some unable to envision plans) the flexibility to see the openings marked on the walls, before committing to them.
  8. It is rare to get a foundation dead on or square, this allows us to make adjustments to cuts as needed
  9. You stand corrected it is not the only reason!
Chris Kavala
info@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS
FL. Lic # CBC036455, GA Lic. RLCO000624, LA Lic. # CL33845
PanelCraftersUser is Offline
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30 Sep 2007 05:28 PM
Posted By Dennis Nelson on 09/30/2007 1:43 PM
I have to disagree with fabricating on site.

I guess that it would depend on the project. A garage or small building that is 'optimized' for panel size would require very little onsite fabrication. For a larger structure that is probably not the case. So, it would depend on the project.
Especially if you are using a manufacturer that doesn’t charge you for scrap!

No offense, but if they are generating scrap, some way, some how, you are paying for it. If they are giving out a phony discount, they have already made it up via some of their pricing.

Also, some manufacturers, via their system, generate very little scrap. Think lower and header panels for windows.

When I estimate I include all windows and doors. Why? The opening actually costs as much or more than the panel it replaces. Think labor, wraps and headers

There is no free lunch..
....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building?
mmacgowaUser is Offline
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01 Oct 2007 07:51 AM
Bobthebuilder,

I would consider on site cutting for a timberframe project. You can spec all you want, but you won't be able to keep the timberframe from conforming to the plans if there is drying and shrinking. We had a project that combined SIPs, timberframe, and trusses. The SIP company flew out their rep just to cut the SIPs on site to avoid the issues of blame. The framer was different from the timber installers so it was difficult to determine who was right and who was to blame. In the end, the timber didn't align with the plans and the GC was the owner who couldn't measure the actual dimensions...I would never do a timberframe project without planning to cut panels on site as a result.

As for the debate on other projects, one of the issues I have is the cost of prefab and engineering vs labor costs. I don't get a break for labor and don't do enough units to demand it. So it costs less to do the cuts on site. And I simply cover my panels. I used to own a billboard company so I know that you can normally find a company with 14' X 48' faces to get rid of. They are much thicker then normal coverings and keep out the water.
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