Bend your own plates
Last Post 02 Aug 2014 04:38 PM by sailawayrb. 51 Replies.
Printer Friendly
Sort:
PrevPrev NextNext
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Page 3 of 3 << < 123
Author Messages
sailawayrbUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2270
Avatar

--
31 Jul 2014 04:52 PM
“Just to be provocative - Siggy makes it clear that he doesn't like high mass emitters.” Not sure where you drew that conclusion Jonr. Yes, we all know that YOU don’t like high mass emitters as you are like a parrot on this! John’s company, Appropriate Designs, has mostly done HR high mass emitters. However, his company doesn’t currently do integrated HR and passive solar heating using high reactive high mass collectors/emitters like we do. BTW, John is officially releasing his new book titled Heating with Renewable Energy in a couple months. This new book provides design/install info on solar collectors, air-to-water heat pumps, geothermal water-to-water heat pumps, and wood-fueled boilers.  I give it two thumbs up.

Dave, typically even simple outdoor reset control can handle HR high mass emitters without any issues. This becomes even more true the more you stabilize the indoor temp by well-insulating it from the varying outdoor temp…to the point that outdoor reset control may not even be needed. Yes, if you have significant solar heat gain, you will likely need a more sophisticated control system to ensure that you maintain a comfortable indoor temp without any overshoots. I always avoid standing on floors all day (I much prefer sitting with carpet under my feet…), but I would agree that standing on wood all day would be preferable to standing on concrete all day. However, I prefer the much lower cost and lower maintenance of well-finished concrete (or tiled concrete), especially since we have cats and dogs. So maybe $2/SF for the uninstalled RHT system and maybe $0.39/SF for the uninstalled slab system…so maybe about a cost factor of 5 for our DIY community.
Borst Engineering & Construction LLC - Competence, Integrity and Professionalism are integral to all that we do!
Blueridgecompany.comUser is Offline
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Send Private Message
Posts:656

--
31 Jul 2014 06:30 PM
Not all people want/like concrete stained floors. Don't forget your rigid insulation cost, adds significantly to that .39 cent a foot. Think $1.00 ft2 for 2" rigid pink.
Some like the diaphragm wood provides, the response time and some like the choice of wood (cherry, oak, ...)
Do not write off the future options realized with a platform crawl space that can not be accomplished with a slab such as wire changes, additional plumbing and the like. How about a rat slab and mechanic dolly to zip around under your platform !! Living large..
To many folks a few more dollars spent to have the type of floors that may serve them for the next decade is not the issue, where living on a stone floor could be.
Some old wise person must have said "It is a good idea to not assume another persons budget or aesthetic requirements substituting your own".
Its all about options here, hydronic heat systems can provide a huge collection of options.
I already said I like insulated slabs as well..

Dave thanks for the input on your system,

Dan



Dan <br>BlueRidgeCompany.com
kromUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:58

--
31 Jul 2014 07:19 PM
FWIW if you are going from a standard wood framed floor with some sort of HR emitter on top or underneath, to a concrete floor, there is a gigantic up-charge for both labor and materials that is far in excess of the $1.61, if you are pouring a slab anyway its foolish to not lay in the pex, even if you don' use it right away

hell a concrete floor makes $8/sf for warm board look cheap

from what i've been able to find You are looking at $15 to $20/sf for something like amdeck (the foam alone is over $5,)
sailawayrbUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2270
Avatar

--
31 Jul 2014 09:08 PM
Precisely, if you are doing new construction that will have a slab, we recommend placing the PEX even if you don’t plan to use it right away. I can’t imagine anyone NOT putting any insulation under a slab in most zones these days, even if the slab is not heated and code minimums allow it. Folks who build to code minimums are not exactly energy efficient building role models and I wonder why they would even hang out on a green building forum. The real question is whether the slab insulation needs to be increased from what was originally planned given that the slab will now be heated. That is easily answered by running the free DIY HR floor heating design software on our website. Of course, you have to ask this same question for the RHT system too. In fact, if the RHT system is installed on a floor having an unheated crawl space below it, more insulation will be required for the RHT system than for the slab system, everything else being the same. So I view the insulation as a push or maybe a small additional cost bump to the RHT system..

Speaking of rats, there have been cases where they have damaged PEX in above/below-floor systems. That can't happen if the PEX is embedded in the concrete...ideally in the middle of the slab!
Borst Engineering & Construction LLC - Competence, Integrity and Professionalism are integral to all that we do!
dave111User is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:66

--
31 Jul 2014 11:18 PM
Not to throw rocks, but that $0.39/ft^2 is about the cost of the raw concrete for a thin slab, if you want it colored, stained, stamped, or otherwise finished the cost of the mix is insignificant. Finishing a large area of concrete is also beyond the ability of most DIYers, things just move to fast. I will not try more than about 40 ft^2 at a time, a large area is really a job for a crew. On the other hand I was able to start and stop the RHT install as needed, no time critical operations there.

As far as there being no other additional costs I would also note that IIRC a thin slab is on the order of 18 lb/ft^2. That is not an insignificant uptick in dead weight, and in many cases would require additional support.

As far as insulation, I did install it. Prior to install the crawl was running a couple of degrees warmer than the house above in the winter. Not to efficient, but I am only one guy and everything doesn't happen at once. The difference is that I used fiberglass with an air barrier. With the ICF shell there was not a large temperature drop to the crawl, so the convection loss of fiberglass is of little concern, and I got the fiberglass in R30 for about a third of the cost of R10 of foam. I did use better insulation in those areas that experience a larger delta T, but that is just good engineering.

As far as control systems when I did my research there was not anything that really fit. Things may have changed by now, but at this point I am uninterested. At some point the wife and I are thinking about building up an Arduino based controller with a web interface so that we can better track the system, as well as add features such as outdoor reset (where did that name come from anyway, for us control system types it is just feed forward), it is kind of a hobby thing.

Anyway, as always, my tradeoffs may not be your tradeoffs, just have fun with it.
sailawayrbUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2270
Avatar

--
01 Aug 2014 08:15 AM
True Dave, the $0.39/SF is just the DIY cost of placing the PEX and does NOT include any cost associated with creating the slab or finishing the concrete floor. Again, this scenario is based on doing a slab anyhow for new construction…just like already having an existing wooden subfloor for the RHT. We didn’t include the cost of finishing the RHT floor with hardwood or tile (which would provide much better heat transfer), so it would NOT be appropriate to include the cost of finishing the concrete floor for this cost comparison either. In both cases, you have to finish the floor anyhow and there will be increased cost for both which will depend on how you finish them. We only included the costs of getting the slab or the existing wooden subfloor to be a HR emitter. I will say that it costs less to hire out finishing a concrete floor as compared to hiring out hardwood floor or tile floor installations. I will also say that it costs less to create a slab-on-grade floor than to create a wooden subfloor. I agree, pouring slabs for buildings and finishing concrete floors is NOT a DIY project! However, placing PEX before the concrete pour is an easy DIY project...and likely easier than building the RHT system.

Arduino based controllers are educational, fun, and useful for hobbies. However, we wouldn’t recommend using them as the HVAC control system for a building. We use Programmable Logic Controllers (PLCs) to control our more sophisticated integrated HR and passive solar heating projects:

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/14/aft/82183/afv/topic/Default.aspx
Borst Engineering & Construction LLC - Competence, Integrity and Professionalism are integral to all that we do!
Blueridgecompany.comUser is Offline
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Send Private Message
Posts:656

--
01 Aug 2014 03:34 PM
Sail way far away,
By your logic the insistence of coming back to the .39 cent value you are overlooking multi story houses and all the other right reasons for the diversity in application of hydronic based systems.
Seemingly refusing all but the slab as smart. Remember I said I like slabs, acid wash, even stained been there done that.
If I hold the line as you prescribe and push the idea of saving every possible cent on the building process I can see myself living in a slab on grade cinder block (paint optional) flat shed roof with role composite roofing building with plywood counters and no dimmer switches. Not that there is a problem with that but...
I like options, Wood siding, architectural shingles, granite counters, real wood flooring, wood windows, Washington wines.
I guess said another way is where do you recommend your clients spend all the saved $$ forfeiting the things they want?
Why would you refuse to assist designing all the great alternate systems as you have said earlier in the blog? I don't get it? Client aesthetic requirements input.
What am I to assume?
Dan
Dan <br>BlueRidgeCompany.com
sailawayrbUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2270
Avatar

--
01 Aug 2014 06:03 PM
Dan, people are free to buy and sell whatever makes them happy. The last time I checked, we still had a free country based on the pursuit of happiness.

It is true that we turn away a lot of customers because our residential business focus is on affordable, modestly sized, single-story, highly energy efficient, new building construction. It is also true that we prefer educated, intelligent customers who have spent some time researching what they really need and can afford as opposed to simply buying whatever they want with no consideration given to the cost (both dollars and environmental impact).  So I suppose you could say that we have reached a point where we only work with customers to accomplish projects that both us and our customers are highly interested in accomplishing and that makes both us and our customers happy. How many general contractors or HVAC companies do you know that also design, fabricate, and construct hydroelectric turbines and hydraulic ram pumps?

We have never sacrificed our green building beliefs or integrity just to generate more revenue. So we reserve the right to turn away customers who have plans that simply don’t interest us or don't align with our green building beliefs. So Dan I would say that you could rightly assume that we, our customers, and our DIY community are very happy with how we operate our business. You are certainly free to live in a multi-story mega mansion and cater your business operation to that market niche if that makes you happy. Bottom line, you are free to spend your dollars however you choose and so is everyone else...and you are free to operate your business however you choose.
Borst Engineering & Construction LLC - Competence, Integrity and Professionalism are integral to all that we do!
BadgerBoilerMNUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2010

--
01 Aug 2014 07:02 PM
Supersilious. It is the first thing that popped into my mind. Who but Catherine the Great stills speaks in the third person?

Recount again your personal credentials and lets leave our Dads out of it for a minute.

Why are you slogging around in this particular thread, about a topic you have no interest in?

You have plugged your company a couple of times and poked fun or derided all the competition (you insist you don't have). Why not give it a break and leave the subject, to which you you obviously can't contribute, to those who can?
MA<br>www.badgerboilerservice.com
sailawayrbUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2270
Avatar

--
01 Aug 2014 10:54 PM
Whatever Badger... We will leave it to the educated and intelligent reader to sort out substance and facts from BS and hate mongering...
Borst Engineering & Construction LLC - Competence, Integrity and Professionalism are integral to all that we do!
Blueridgecompany.comUser is Offline
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Send Private Message
Posts:656

--
02 Aug 2014 10:42 AM
Sail way far away please,
I still am confused with your green building design concept / client selection limiting process.
It is easy to understand that a multi story residence (2 or more) is the optimum choice when placed next to the single story slab on grade for the truly ecologically green build client. Be it 1,600 ft2, 2,400 ft2 or more.
Building foot print is minimized reducing; Lot size in urban design, all the related products to support a larger foot print are minimized. Drainage, back fill and related heavy equipment time, soil movement and foundation labor, concrete requirement. Keep in mind for green concrete very energy consuming in both manufacturing of and transportation next to sustainable wood product. Mid platform insulation is minimized, plumbing is stacked, electrical consolidated.
Roof Square footage is halved, cost of related framing, sheathing, oil based roof products halved.
Exposed exterior surface area of the building is reduced saving energy as well as insulation requirement.
The list of green and or cost effective building design goes on.

I have trouble with your logic "we turn away a lot of customers because our residential business focus is on affordable, modestly sized, single-story, highly energy efficient, new building construction. It is also true that we prefer educated, intelligent customers who have spent some time researching what they really need and can afford as opposed to simply buying whatever they want with no consideration given to the cost (both dollars and environmental impact)."
Are multi story home owners less intelligent?
What is a modestly sized building?
Dan

Dan <br>BlueRidgeCompany.com
sailawayrbUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2270
Avatar

--
02 Aug 2014 04:38 PM
True Dan, there is a cost savings for multi-story construction largely because you can minimize the foundation and roof footprint for a given SF building. The electrical and plumbing is about a push if the layout is efficient. There is more cost for multi-story construction for the additional floor and stair well construction. There is more cost for multi-story construction if you want HR floor heating on all the floors. So you can’t really generalize and say multi-story is always significantly more cost effective. Furthermore, some folks can’t deal with stairs. So like you said Dan, having options is a good thing. However, if you are building in an urban area and have a small lot size relative to the house size that you want to build, you don’t have any option except to build multi-story. There are many reasons why people might find themselves in this situation, so I wouldn’t characterize them as being less intelligent. Nevertheless, we don’t get involved with multi-story tract home construction. Our focus is as previously stated.
Borst Engineering & Construction LLC - Competence, Integrity and Professionalism are integral to all that we do!
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Page 3 of 3 << < 123


Active Forums 4.1
Membership Membership: Latest New User Latest: noooze New Today New Today: 1 New Yesterday New Yesterday: 0 User Count Overall: 34706
People Online People Online: Visitors Visitors: 111 Members Members: 1 Total Total: 112
Copyright 2011 by BuildCentral, Inc.   Terms Of Use  Privacy Statement