Mike,

Nice article. I have looked at this idea a few times and even got a couple of qoutes on systems. I have just never been sure if it was the best idea though. My issue now is that all the quotes I am getting for water-to-water heat pumps(geothermal) are adding $5-10K onto the $20K for the rest of our geothermal. A tankless radiant slab seems to be a better choice for up front cost.

My only question is whether or not it is the right idea? I would have to go with electric or propane. The propane system is more to install, but is it a better option in the long run? Electricity is fairly cheap for me(lots of hydro-elactric production here). Propane seems to have a much better heat output compared to the electric (am i right?), but also has the hassels of tanks and the costs of installation. $600-800 vs $150-250 to buy the heater alone.

Any thoughts along these lines would really be appreciated.

http://www.nysupersclub.org/energyconversionfactors.htm

Here's is another must link regarding BTU's. Since the common denominator in heating is BTU's this link should help everyone.

Know and understand what these costs are? Use other schemas to figure cost basis LOWEST and best long term. Aflue ,standby losses,and efficiencies are another factor but lets focus on these numbers first.Then focus on Heat Pumps,Cold Start Boilers with low mass.etc.



Energy Comparisions


Compare Natural Gas – sold in therms (100,000 BTU/therm)1

Multiply the oil heat price per gallon by 0.72 to give the equivalent price per therm of natural gas

Multiply the propane price per gallon by 1.087 to give the equivalent price per therm of natural gas

Multiply the electricity price per kWh by 29.3 to give the equivalent price per therm of natural gas


Compare Propane – sold in gallons (92,000 BTU/gallon)

Multiply the oil heat price per gallon by 0.663 to give the equivalent price per gallon of propane

Multiply the natural gas delivered price per therm by 0.92 to give the equivalent price per gallon of propane

Multiply the electricity price per kWh by 27.0 to give the equivalent price per gallon of propane


Compare Heating Oil – sold in gallons (138,700 BTU/gallon)

Multiply the propane price per gallon by 1.507 to give the equivalent price per gallon of heating oil

Multiply the natural gas delivered price per therm by 1.387 to give the equivalent price per gallon of heating oil

Multiply the electricity price per kWh by 40.6 to give the equivalent price per gallon of heating oil


Compare Electricity – sold in kilowatt hours (3,413 BTU/kilowatt hour)2

Multiply the propane price per gallon by 0.037 to give the equivalent price per kilowatt hour of electricity

Multiply the natural gas delivered price per therm by 0.034 to give the equivalent price per kilowatt hour of electricity

Multiply the heating oil price per gallon by 0.024 to give the equivalent price per kilowatt hour of electricity

1Figure out your price per therm by dividing your total fuel bill by the total therms of natural gas consumed. This is your price per therm.
2 Figure out your price per kWh by dividing your total fuel bill by the total kWh of electricity consumed. This is your price per kWh.



Don't forget to Plug in your cost basis for your ongoing fuel(s) cost then add your startup costs /life replacement cost etc to achieve your Return on Investment (ROI) in years? Note: Electric COs are regulated by the Government and need approvals for higher rates charged. Thus electricity has rose the least amount vs other fuels so far.

In my case I live in NYC OIL (WAS) cheaper than all other fuels. I remember oil was $30 Barrel now it's just hit $100 Yikes. Oil increased 300% thus increasing my cost per sq foot during this heating season. Copper just forget about it... Insane. My guess is the cost has tripled with gold.

In the past my steam bolier used to burned 400+ gallons per month for 5000sq ft house during the heating season at $1.30 gallon of oil before I remodel. Now I burn about 50% less energy than before just 200 gallons month avg with a consistant 73 setpoint inside. Even though my fuel consumption was reduced by 50% I'm now paying more money to heat my house with Oil. Annual Basis Costs must be considered.
Today If had had GAS or Propane my annual fuel cost would be cheaper.

Thus in my case:

200 gallons of oil burned per month heating season (5 months avg) Nov-April equals 200gallons X 140,000btus/gallon= 28,000,000 BTU's burned to keep 3/4 floors at setpoint at 68 F basement/73 First floor/68 f 2nd floor per month per 3750sqft.

28,000,000 BTU's Month for 3750 Sq. x 5 months=140,000,000 total btu's for home season.

My heating cost (non repairs)140,000,000 / 140,000 btu/gallon = 1,000 Gallons CMV* 3.25/gallon CASHOLA = $3,250 CASH for#2 oil. Credit is higher!
If electric then $9,338 yearly cost at .23 kwh NYC at parity w/ oil.


These questions were posed to Acadia www.gotohallowell.com since they won the award at 2008 AHR Expo in NYC last week. I was there two days.

They claim it is better than Geothermal, Fossil Fuel boilers, GAS,and Propane!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can't believe this but maybe its true. here's cnet.com article on the heat pump.

In conclusion, It sounds like this is the one glove that fits all radiant heating systems.

http://www.news.com/8301-11128_3-9859871-54.html?tag=cd.blog


Mike

Mike,

Thanks again for the links. The numbers help. I am just a little uncertain of your conclusion. Are you saying that this new heat pump may be the way to go with new geothermal installations? Or are you saying it may be a better option to all these systems entirely?

It does seem like an interesting idea. If they really have developed an efficient air-to-air heat pump for cold climates, great! Plus the "Cube" idea. I think I will need to wait and see what happens with it though. I need to see some real world examples first.

That of course brings me back to what I should use for my new radiant systems heat source. I may install all the in slab piping and figure out the heat source later.

Thanks again Mike.

I make no endorsements. I just reported the Winner of the show. I have yet to see it work. They told me its "BETA" and it works really great. Their website claims its "same as Geothermal without the costs." There was a crowd around Arcadia booth. There is plenty of interest because of the companies claims. Read the website and read the cos. claims. I guess I may be swayed because I saw plenty of GEOTHERMAL companies pumping their products as the best. Obviously, Geothermal is very efficient but the cost may be a turn off upfront. Gotohallowell.com based upon the following claims, seems to be a viable answer for future heating sources. Now who will dare try it first and report back to us is the question. I'm sidelined, however I know fort DIX Federal Government base just order a bunch of them.

Obviously, you make your own decision. Also the system200.com looked really good as a second choice boiler.

Your idea to install your pex in the slab first is a good idea. Then you can make your choice on your heat source later on based on your cost of $$$$ heating btus in your area.

FYI,
Mike

I just looked at the Acadia web site. Interesting technology with potential I believe. However, it is up against what I believe will be strong competition with the VRV split system heat pump from Daikin, http://www.daikinac.com. The Daikin has one advantage, I think, over the Acadia. It has a variable flow compressor so its heat output is constantly variable to match the variation of the heat load in the house. It also supports multipe indoor units on one outdoor unit. The Acadia is a step variable heat output. It does look like, however, the Acadia will extract heat at lower temps than the Daikin. The Daikin runs on compressor only until 10F when it switches to auxillary heat.

Hopefully by this time next year I can give a good user report of the Daikin system in an ICF house.

Is the Daikin system a ductless system? Is that what you mean when you say one outside unit supports multiple inside units?

They have both, ducted and ductless air handlers in wall, ceiling, and floor mount configurations. Some are designed for short ducts like in above ceiling for one or two rooms. They have one series of regular type up flow air handlers for a ducted system. I'm planning on using their ducted ceiling unit, but installed in the crawl space. I'll pull return air from the attic and blow the supply into the crawl space. I'll have registers into the living space from the crawl space and from the living space into the attic. I save on ducting plus by dumping the supply air into the crawl space I'll have quasi radiant floor heating. I will have both, sealed and conditioned crawl and attic.