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I need a soft start on hydronic design
Last Post 30 Mar 2009 11:27 AM by toddm. 5 Replies.
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toddm
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1152
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| 01 Mar 2009 02:34 PM |
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Hi I have all the pieces in place for a passive solar house with wood stove assist. I am leaning toward a low-tech approach to maximize safety and preserve options in case it doesn't work. I'd like to know what you think. The house is 1600 sf: 1000 sf downstairs in a single room and 600 sf upstairs in two bedrooms and a bath. The heat downstairs will be radiant in a concrete slab. The heat upstairs will be forced air. The design heat loss is 25,000 btu/ hr at 10 degrees. The house has lots of mass -- 50,000 pounds of concrete in the floor alone -- so the average temp of 30 degrees in Dec and Jan. will probably mean more than design.
The south wall of the great room has 40 linear feet of windows six feet high. In theory, there will be enough heat coming through the windows to generate thermal lag (heat the slab to the point that it will carry the house overnight.) I want forced air upstairs to move excess heat between the floors on super bright days (and to distribute air from an HRV.) But in Dec particularly, I'll have the opposite problem. There are long stretches in so central Pa when the sun doesn't shine.
The theory anyway is to use a wood stove to induce thermal lag on cloudy days. The stove is a Stratford Eco-Boiler http://www.eco-boiler.com/ It puts out 70k btu/hr max, with 41k btu going to water. I figure that putting 25k btu/hr into the slab in hot, efficient burns of eight hours to 10 hours will get the job done.
Of course all of this is conjecture, particularly the solar part, so the mechanical design needs to be flexible and incremental. What if I started out by using a 150-gallon hi-temp polypropylene tank, vented and insulated to R15, as an indirect tank? Connected to the stove by thermosiphon, the tank would be for heat storage only. If my math is right, it would take the stove 3.5 hours to heat it from 100 degrees to 180, at which point it would be storing about 90k btus. The slab removes any possibility of overheating, except in malfunctions. It could soak up 200k btu before anyone would say 'hey, this floor is hot.' The stove also has an automatic shutdown feature, reading the temperature of the return water. The question is how to get the heat out of the tank efficiently -- and inexpensively in case I have to scrap much of this and start over. It would be simple enough to coil up 40 or 50 feet of copper tubing and drop it in. In this approach, I would use the tank to preheat potable water for DHW and hydronic, straight through an electric boiler in the case of DHW, and through the boiler into a heat exchanger in the case of radiant. (I'd use antiscald valves and mixing valves to keep temperatures in range.) Do you think a homemade heat exchanger could keep up with the stove? Will an electric boiler stand up to feeds >150 degrees? If passive solar is a complete bust, how you would add a high-efficiency oil boiler? Scrap the electric? Separate DHW and radiant? What's missing here is quick response, even from the wood stove. I could add hydronic to the forced air for a fast response. Sort of. (In spring or fall, it could take the stove several hours to get the indirect tank hot enough to make a difference; I am reluctant to tamper at all with the thermosiphon loop.) Can you do a threeway out of the electric boiler: DHW, HX to hydronic slab, HX to hydronic forced air? With the air handler pulling air from opposite ends of a single room downstairs, and with an open, central stairwell as a return, is that enough circulation to heat both floors in a tight house? The house is in the woods, so I can't say this point whether I can mount a solar water heater above the leaves, or what the house will be like in late Oct. before the leaves fall. A heat pump could be handy early and late. Even in the winter it would be fairly efficient. Sorry to be so vague. This is one where I'm going to have to live in it first. I am just trying not to do anything terminally stupid. |
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toddm
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1152
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| 30 Mar 2009 09:05 AM |
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Mission accomplished. There isn't much the Brits haven't figured out about wood-fired hydronic heat. And in this case, the missing link is a Dunsley Neutraliser, or Neutralizer to translate to American. http://www.dunsleyheat.co.uk/linkupsys.htm I can use it to add an oil-fired boiler if passive solar is a bust, and I can add solar hot water as well if my roof pokes through the leaf cover. Actually, I am just going to leave space for the Neutraliser and add whatever I need after figure out what exactly it is that I do need. It should be stated here that the Brits have had a coherent energy policy for 30 years. We have not. |
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NRT.Rob
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1741
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| 30 Mar 2009 09:11 AM |
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I wouldn't be so confident. wood stove/water jacket combinations have proven problematic, even in a country with a coherent energy policy.
that "neturaliser" just simplifies piping a little bit. caleffi sells a "hydrolink" that does the same thing. Precision hydronic products has a "sep can". Any low loss header with short fat pipes can do the same think, or simple piping arrangements can approximate it as well.
piping isn't likely to be the tough nut to crack. logic is. |
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| Rockport Mechanical<br>RockportMechanical.com |
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toddm
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1152
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| 30 Mar 2009 09:20 AM |
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Logic meaning what? |
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NRT.Rob
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1741
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| 30 Mar 2009 09:39 AM |
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how to actual control all of this. multiple heat sources can get complex quickly.
I wouldn't depend on thermosiphoning, for one. use a pump. Thermosiphoning may very well be inadequate to dissipate all the heat you are trying to move. Thermosiphoning was used in the old days, when you had 4 to 6 inch steam pipes, 200+ degree water at all times and time, nothing but time. then we invented circulators. they are cool ;)
For two, temper your outgoing DHW to a temp that won't kill you. set it slightly higher than you want, electric on demand set to something lower than that, if temp drops, it kicks in. DHW is taken care of with one coil in the tank, tempering valve, electric on demand. This is a great setup and as long as you plan to supplement your lifestyle with wood it shouldn't matter what you are doing elsewhere. If you abandon the wood, then how you do your DHW is more dictated by your local fuel costs.
for three, an extraction coil for the heating system works too: also tempered, this one with a pump. this is the circuit that would be modified for a future heat source if desired.
it's kind of a bummer to use the same tank for wood and for solar, as if it's hot from wood already that will reduce your solar collection, but there are other tricks you could to dump heat to the living space if you're willing to overcharge the home during the day when heat is available.. then again, that morning the tank would be at its coolest most likely, so you could decide then whether to fire up the wood or wait for the sun. Maybe not such a big deal in this case then.
you'd need a pretty small heat load for a boiler of that output (wood side) and a tank that small to meet the overnight load. in cold weather with a full charge you have 3, maybe 4 hours of cruise. that means "cold by morning".... |
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| Rockport Mechanical<br>RockportMechanical.com |
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toddm
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1152
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| 30 Mar 2009 11:27 AM |
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I don't see control as an issue. The two points of marrying an indoor boiler with thermal mass, besides the charm of dancing flames, are these: There's always an attendant on duty; and nothing happens quickly in a house made of 50 tons of concrete (slab and walls.) Yes the house will be cooler by morning; I figure the slab will give up a degree an hour at the design loss of 10 degrees, with AAC walls further moderating daily swings to some unknown degree. I am aiming for a swing of no more than 65-75 with no additional heat once the stove goes out. I figure in a month or so, I'll have a pretty good feel for how much extra heat is needed. And when. The sun should generate thermal lag on some days, with how many remaining to be seen. So the basic question is hot tank or cold tank? If the sun shines for seven days straight, and the house is toasty warm, there's no stove and no heat left in the tank. For that reason, I am going to preheat DHW in a heat exchanger in the tank and rely on an electric tankless to bring it up to temperature (and, yes, fit an anti-scald valve.) Solar hot water fits better than you think, providing incremental gains in the summer and on a bright winter days when the stove is likely to stay cold. Question No. 2 is how to plumb radiant. The stove has four 1 1/8" pipe fittings for a pair of cross flowed circuits. I am inclined to plumb one directly to the radiant pumps for the most efficient heat delivery to the slab. The second circuit must be thermosiphon, as per the stove manufacturer's requirements, with a "heat leak" device capable of absorbing 10 percent of its output if the radiant pumps failed. I am inclined to have two failsafes. The first would be the indirect tank, which would take two or three hours to heat from 120 to 212. The second would be a water-to-air HX in the forced air system that could also act as fast response heat in fall and spring. To answer your unstated safety question, Stratford also requires a vented indirect tank, and an expansion/makeup tank mounted well above that and fitted with a 3/4" supply capable of handling a catastrophic failure of the thermosiphon circuit. (Translation: No boom; lots of mops.) The final safety issue is an power outage that would cut off all the house's pumps, including the well. I figure backup power would work best on the radiant pumps. The final questions: How to use the indirect tank for heat storage on unexpected fall cold snaps, and how best to plumb a tankless oil boiler for always hot tank if passive solar is a complete bust? I would say that contingency plans are not a mark of an overconfident person. |
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