I'm a DIYer planning to design/impliment my own Hydronic Underfloor staple up install.  Yes, it's folly, it's sheer madness!  I need to get the heat setup in my house within a set timeframe (between plaster coming down, and drywall going up), and I can't afford to hire an engineer and patch my roof and insulate my walls.

It's a 120 year old, drafty, 3 story + basement Victorian house.  The 3rd floor is 850 sq feet, 2nd is 1210, and 1st 1210.  My heat calcs say that it'll take about 110k BTU to heat it *after* I get it all insulated up.  The plan is, we're moving into 2nd floor and fixing the rest of the house up.  We'll be using a wood stove on 2nd floor, and some minimum heat in the basement to keep the pipes from freezing until the underfloor radiant goes up.

We'll be adding a zone at a time, as the house is being finished.  I know the wreaks havok with a pump, so I was planning on getting a variable speed pump, maybe a Taco 013-VDT.  Another design problem is the boiler room will be in the basement, and it would be probably a 40 ft lead and tail to get there, so I was planning to go with 500ft loops.

I was looking at getting a Traingle Tube 110NG, which seems to have a lot of nifty features, like outside reset.  I was thinking of dispensing with any kind of mixing setup and letting the boiler control the temp of the water and just continously circulate it.  Is this crazy?

Also, is there really a need for all those actuated zone valves on each loop?  Is there any reason why I can't just dial it in by hand and and stick it there?

Yes, I should hire an engineer, but besides that, am I headed in the right direction?  Am I completely wrong?  Do I need to hit the books some more?

if you need 100k output, the solo 110 is not big enough. it's output is around 100. that said, 110k is very high and would be average of around 30+ BTUs/sq ft for you: if that's real, you probably have several areas in this house that radiant will not heat by itself.

not using mixing is not crazy, if you can design a one temp system. that, of course, is the trick.

You don't need to actuate every loop... you can use zone valves for whole manifolds too, if you have large zones. but it's pretty unlikely you're going to hand-balance 3 stories in an old home on one zone.

Best of luck!

You actually leapfrogged me about the supplimental heat, I didn't want to drop all of my questions at once.  The other thing I was wondering if it is possible to implement some supplimentary radiators in a one temp system.  I haven't had time to try and suss this out yet, but if anyone has any info on it, it'll be helpful.

depends on the temp your system is running at.

in this house, it's probably not an issue. you'll probably need some fairly high water temps.

My recommendations are perhaps close to Robs,
I would suggest a LAARS NEO Therm boiler. These are straight forward, the manual has some good design layouts.
I would suggest 1 zone per floor, ether with pumps or one pump and motor zones. If you are doing a floor at a time I would recommend 3 Taco three speed pumps. build out the boiler room completely and cap the legs not used until you are ready.
If you can spare a 3//4 inch on top of the surface of the current floor you can place a heating system on top and work area by area as you have time. This is a good approach as yuo can work at a slower pace and your delivered water temp can be lower=higher efficiency.
Here is a link to the LAARS Neotherm manual; http://www.blueridgecompany.com/radiant/hydronic/659/laars-tank-boiler-packages check Neotherm pdf page 16,
This is the heat and domestic H20 design.
Very clear.
Dan

Either I missed a very good class on zone determination over the internet without plans, any knowledge of your preferences or any calcs, or Dan might be speaking a bit hastily here. extremely so in a situation like the one you're in with very high and very variable heat loads.

I definitely would not recommend zone pumping, even if you are doing this in stages. If it can handle the maximum flow (which would be 11 GPM or less here, so it should if you don't go nuts with loop lengths), the Alpha or Wilo pumps will do an excellent job. or if you use a fixed speed pump, you'll likely want a bypass valve anyway, and any 3-speeder can adjust with your system growth without needing multiple pumps. The Taco pump you mentioned is an option as well, though I've never used it so I have no idea how it stacks up in terms of energy usage or performance.

Likewise, there is nothing particularly special about the Neotherm boiler that makes it a "must have" here: if you are using gas, you'll definitely want a modulating/condensing boiler of some sort, but the most important question will be what is available and servicable locally, not what someone has on sale on a website somewhere. Dan has many good qualities, but he is not going to fly to your house to fix your boiler on a Sunday night, and the boiler is definitely NOT a DIY project, not if safety and performance are important to you. You do not own the tools, nor do you have the experience necessary to safely install a mod/con boiler, no matter how nice the salesman or pretty the pictures. Get a qualified pro to do that install even if you do everything else. I have some clients with real headaches out there from not listening to me on that piece of advice... and I can only hope none with literal ones from CO poisoning.

I can definitely see the sense in having someone nearby with parts and experience on hand for fixing a boiler in a bad situation.  But, is really that dangerous to do a DIY boiler install?  I've only glanced over the manuals as of yet, but I'll look a bit closer today.  Is it any different than doing any other gas appliance install?

Let me get this straight. You are going to design a modern radiant floor heating system using a ModCon boiler, without the assistance of a qualified designer, the $5,000 plus software, reference materials, factory training or the 20+ years field experience I have invested in this specific discipline?

And just so I'm not confused, you are going to collect all the necessary plumbing, electrical, gas-fitting skills and tools that it took me 10 years to acquire before I installed my first ModCon boiler and go ahead and install your designed system all by yourself?

I think I'm on the wrong bus.

Well, badgerboiler, sir.  I don't know what's involved with the mod/con boiler, something that at the moment I'm inclined to hire someone, if not just for having someone in the area who knows their product and can repair it within an emergency timeframe.

I have done wiring/plumbing jobs, and have the tools for those things and a bit of know how, or more importantly, know where to find how.  I admit, gas is a bit beyond me, but I know a couple of people who have had a go at it before.

As far as design, I cannot profess to build a system with the ease and simplicity that you can, but I do believe that I could cobble something together that could get me there, maybe even needing a few major adjustments after the install.  Not only that, I enjoy learning new things, how they work, and doing things on my own.

Couple this with my fear of contractors, yup, I'm going to give it a shot.

there are lots of people who have installed their own boilers, there is no doubt about that. There are also lots of non-code-compliant installs that bite you in the butt when you go to sell the house, there are carbon monoxide deaths every year, and gas is explosive. Less dramatically but far more commonly, improper setups can lead to all kinds of boiler problems that end up costing you far more than a professional install would have in the first place, AFTER a ton of headache trying to get the thing fixed up and running smooth. And even if you don't have any noticeable problems, you have no way of knowing what the performance of your unit is without combustion analysis. By the time you tool up for that, you could easily have hired out the install as well.

The manuals don't cover everything. I think morgan was getting a little shrill there, but the point is simple: boilers are not a DIY project. You might get lucky. But if you don't, it's a real PITA with no one to call but yourself and your friendly web vendor. In my professional opinion as a fellow who works with DIYers every day of the week, please do not DIY your boiler install. Your lead in sentence sums it up, really... it's worth its weight in gold to have a local, knowledgeable professional there to fix the boiler fast if something goes wrong.

And for the record I don't think you're really in ideal DIY design territory here either. but, rough in for supplemental radiators and you should be able to recover from any major design flaws by adding a radiator and TRV combo to any underperforming rooms. As my one last arguement to get someone else involved, I will just point out that you already undersized your boiler once (assuming your load calcs are good). replacing it would have cost far more than design would.

So,
Lots of food for the table here.
Yes there is. OK, we help/ supply a lot of DYI people as well as contractors. The LAARS boiler is not that special, it has the same combustion chamber as the Mascot, Baxi, munchkin and a few others. So we have an appliance that will share similarities when your boiler technician comes to visit. I have stated in my first post to plan on a boiler technician with this install. As building to a code compliant design we assume that there will be proper gas supply, and inspection of water make up, exhaust, and additional requirements to meet code.
I recommended the TACO 3 speed pumps ads the option on fluid control is easily made in the boiler room. Naturally when my company looks harder at pipe design and lay out we can fine tune the system. There is a huge desire to see zoning with one big pump and many zone valves on this site for efficiency reasons. OK I buy the3 argument but got to say I like pumps, the three speed TACO is affordable and hard to miss for the DYI group. Granted thy can hire a professional and pay a lot more for solutions, But for the competent DYI guy a lot can be saved by learning the system and struggling through what can be done.
For instance I like to sail, my first boat was a 24 foot boat, I splashed it and away she went, a lot to learn, a lot of mistakes, no clues, a book on rules of traffic, DYI 20 years later I still sail, it is a total experience, mechanical, physical, weather, safety.
Building a home for the DYI has similar aspects and sure there are times a guy needs real talented experienced help. But a lot of the basic work can be covered with the desire to learn and take on the challenge.
Lots of choices, be smart, cautious, and dig in.
For the bulk of home owner DYI guys the only way to afford radiant is with a dose of elbow grease. other wise its forced air.
Dan

it's not "one big pump". as I said, this house likely could run on 11 GPM (110k at 20 dt). ONE of any of the pumps discussed can push that with plenty of head available for conservative rule of thumb loops. it never makes sense to upsize a pump: two smaller pumps are cheaper and use less energy. but the point is, there is no benefit to multiple pumps for the vast majority of homes.. and certainly nothing special in the "incremental progress" situation we're in to justify it any more than in any other situation. it's no hard to open up zone valve zones than it is to open up pump zones.

The time to find out if the boiler is serviceable is before you buy it, not when the first boiler technician sees it in the basement. It doesn't serve anyone to whitewash that. I myself love the prestige solo boiler line, it's damn near bulletproof and has some decent water content. But, in some areas you can't get parts and no one works on them, they use other models. So be it... in those areas, it's the wrong choice.

Many "total DIY" situations are the only way a client can get radiant, agreed. But ignoring the header on this forum, a bad radiant system is not necessarily better than a good baseboard, radiator or FHA system: and even if it is, it's an awful lot of money to spend on something that might not even work, such as this poster's situation indicates. In a modern tight home with relatively homogeneous loads or with a conservative number of zones, that's one thing. In his situation where it's entirely PROBABLE some rooms can't even keep up, it's quite another. Frankly if 30 BTUs/sq ft is the best he can do, I would advocate for bagging the radiant system entirely and putting that money in the envelope, it would probably be better spent there for both comfort and economy.

but I don't care what situation you are in: DIY'ing your boiler install is a bad idea, it shouldn't be done, and to be perfectly frank I take a dim view of people who promote and profit from it. I've seen too many people struggling with parts, service, and poor performance to advocate it to anyone. Having a contractor doesn't eliminate any possibility of that, of course, there are poor contractors too. And even acknowledging that, I say if you can't afford to have the boiler professionally installed, then I would say the radiant has to go. Go with TRV radiators and save the extra headaches and sweat and spend the money where it makes sense to.

*sigh* This is the third time I've tried to reply here, my browser keeps messing up when I hit submit.  I'll try again..

Thanks for your input, guys.  Based on your input, I'm considering putting the breaks on my plans. I'll probably put 1/2 pex under my floors and worry about the boiler room later, but I'll investigate radiators.  My wife doesnt' really seem to like them that well, but we'll see.

My house is really on the edge of being able to be heated by radiant floors, I get that.  To tell the truth, my wife and I would be happy if we could get it up to 60 degrees, and cover the difference with wood heat.  The house is a large one, and it will feel even larger still when the kids move out.  If I was sloppy with my BTUs, it's because I hoping that I won't ever heat the entire house on the system.

This will be our last house (besides the rest home, and the big one in the sky), and I suppose I do have to consider what'll happen when we don't want to haul wood, and when 68 doesn't feel warm enough anymore and we want to crank the temp to 80.

I'll buy a nice EPA wood stove to heat 2nd floor up for this winter, and consider my options.  I do like the Blue Ridge site, it has some good products, and I may be buying from there when the time comes, but I'll probably end up getting a qualified person to install the boiler.  The way I see it, even if I believe (?) I can get it installed right, I don't believe that I'll be able to diagnose any problems that might happen when we really need the heat.  It'll be good to have someone who has parts on hand and knows the specific product inside & out. 

Lonlaz

Don't let anyone here make you feel like you have to explain your abilities to them. Read through all the posts, listen to Rob (NRT). When it comes to hydronics, (if I ever decided to 'jump ship') he's  the ONLY poster here I would turn to for the answers who also has no ulterior motives. The rest either want to sell you or just love to hear themselves...type!

Good luck in your endeavor, take your time and don't let the a-holes make you feel you can't ask for help when you need it.

OK,
Lets review you have a drafty 3 story victorian, you mentioned staple up w/ 500 foot loops, (I wonder if you are thinking about not having a manifold on each floor, that would be wrong, air problems, cavatation).
Back up, think 300 foot loops and a manifold on each floor fed by a 3/4 supply and return or a 1 inch supply and return number of loops dependant.
Now I asume you can not do a surface mount system and give up 3/4 inch (if you could your odds go up on the delivered heat being able to capture the load of the house at a lower more efficent tempature).
so staple up, 300 foot loops 8 inches on center, heat transfer plates, insulation under pipe and plates to minimize downward heat loss. If you are thinking of applying pipe this would be proper. There is a lot of power in a 150,000 BTU boiler. If your walls are guted, perhaps it would be of value to spray a light foam prior to insulation to tighten up the heat loss from cracks and draft.
This will go a long wat, 1/2 -1 inch.
The boiler can wait, but to just staple pipe, no.
Regarding boiler technicans, We like working with LAARS, they do the best they can to assist in the support of there products when we as sales people at BlueRidge are stumped, (it happens) furthere there is a network of contractors on there support list scattered across the country willing to assist, not a bad reasource.
Good luck with your project.
Dan