Radiant Heat system with Hardwood Floors. Questions.
Last Post 06 Aug 2014 08:16 AM by sailawayrb. 38 Replies.
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sailawayrbUser is Offline
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29 Jul 2014 10:53 AM
Very true, one should never trust parochial views on any subject on a forum such as this. One should always take the time to accomplish proper research on a subject (e.g., John Siegenthaler’s Modern Hydronic Heating being the authority on this subject) and then carefully checkout the credentials (i.e., experience, knowledge, licensing, insurance and bonding) and the references (i.e., by directly contacting their previous customers) of any company that you hire.
Borst Engineering & Construction LLC - Competence, Integrity and Professionalism are integral to all that we do!
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29 Jul 2014 01:03 PM
If you buy one of Siggy's three additions, I would refer you to the 2nd in which he discusses "ABOVE-FLOOR TUBE AND PLATE RADIANT FLOOR", like the one Dan referred to. Commonly referred to as "sandwich" systems and essentially what Warmboard is, his own illustration shows hardwood as the floor covering.

There is no reason to shy away from radiant panel heating, real or imagined.
MA<br>www.badgerboilerservice.com
jonrUser is Offline
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29 Jul 2014 01:04 PM
I actually like some of the tiles that look like wood.

A dehumidifier and a humidifier can be used to control indoor humidity. But humidity typically needs to be kept low in the Winter and the heat added to the floor will further reduce the Winter humidity seen by the floor.

I've seen wood floors (particularly Maple) that have noticeable gaps in cold climate Winters, even without radiant floor heat. Perhaps it's best to install on the dry side of the specified limits.

A tight, well insulated house needs little heat from the floor anyway. Even more so in a mild climate.
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03 Aug 2014 08:15 PM
If you buy one of John Siegenthaler’s Modern Hydronic Heating books, you should do more than just look at the pictures in his book… You should carefully read the HR emitter performance data (i.e., the HR emitter k-values) associated with slab-on-grade, thin-slab, above-floor and below-floor HR emitters all having a common 12” PEX spacing and all having no finished floor covering (i.e., R-value of 0) which are 0.882, 0.787, 0.55, and 0.36 respectively. If you then add a hardwood floor covering (i.e., let’s say one having an R-value of 1.0) these HR emitter k-values then become 0.47, 0.44, 0.44 and 0.24 respectively.

The required upward heat flux of the HR emitter is the required heat load divided by the heated floor area. The required HR system supply temp is this required upward heat flux divided by the HR emitter k-value plus the design room temp. So a larger HR emitter k-value is goodness…and the difference between 0.882 (slab-on-grade with a finished concrete floor) and 0.44 (above-floor with a hardwood floor) is significant and real. This is why folks who care about maximizing HR floor heating system efficiency (i.e., minimizing the required supply temp) love slab-on-grade HR emitters and don’t like covering ANY HR emitter with a hardwood wood.
Borst Engineering & Construction LLC - Competence, Integrity and Professionalism are integral to all that we do!
Blueridgecompany.comUser is Offline
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04 Aug 2014 01:16 AM
hardwood floors are fine
Dan <br>BlueRidgeCompany.com
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04 Aug 2014 01:16 AM
hardwood floors are fine
Dan <br>BlueRidgeCompany.com
jonrUser is Offline
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04 Aug 2014 11:40 AM
One could say that people who care about efficiency don't like windows. It only gets interesting when you carry through and put it in $/year terms and then balance it with other desires. Radiant floor efficiency is most significant with geo thermal, a little with a condensing boiler and not at all with electric heat.
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04 Aug 2014 12:57 PM
True, people who care about efficiency also don’t like doors/windows, skylights, cathedral/vaulted ceilings, hallways, stairwells, open fireplaces, leaky and under-insulated building assemblies, and over-sized buildings for the occupancy. One could say that if you have ANY utility costs at all or a ROI with a breakeven point longer than you will be in the building, you didn’t get it right…unless dollars are not a consideration for you.
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Blueridgecompany.comUser is Offline
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04 Aug 2014 02:56 PM
Aesthetics,
Get outside the box.
Personally a cathedral ceiling is fantastic. Nearly all homes I have built for myself or others (35 years+ in the trades) have had some form of cathedral ceiling, usually supported by a nice piece of timber frame beam work.
2 item examples that will provide ROI when the next owner is willing to pay more for the creative aspect of the space. Increased property value due to not only building efficiency but initial Aesthetic choices of the client and builder. Today's codes mandate building efficiency, R40 insulation on lids, R 30 under platform in crawl, R 21 walls, air leak test ...
Aesthetic choices are not choices limited to the wealthy, mc mansion types, these are design decisions that can occur on the small 800 square foot house.
Dan
Dan <br>BlueRidgeCompany.com
kromUser is Offline
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04 Aug 2014 07:35 PM
There is a lot to be said for building a home, instead of an appliance to dwell in.
sailawayrbUser is Offline
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04 Aug 2014 08:51 PM
There’s a lot to be said for building a home that doesn’t have any utility bills or puts you in debt for the rest of your life too. Like you said Dan, it’s all about options and selecting the ones that make the best sense for each individual.
Borst Engineering & Construction LLC - Competence, Integrity and Professionalism are integral to all that we do!
BadgerBoilerMNUser is Offline
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04 Aug 2014 08:53 PM
Interesting, accurate, but recitation always is, and equally irrelevant in the real world.

Utopia was, and still is; a fiction.

DON'T JUST LOOK AT THE PICTURES! Insulting as usual.
MA<br>www.badgerboilerservice.com
sailawayrbUser is Offline
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04 Aug 2014 08:58 PM
Just facts and substance over BS and hate mongering Badger.
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Blueridgecompany.comUser is Offline
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05 Aug 2014 01:32 AM
Sail away please,
You are right.
Kind of makes me think about living in a cave in Afghanistan, or perhaps more locally like New Mexico,
Some beautiful views,
Minimal heat, always cool in summer,
Easy to clean, dirt never shows,
A good rug over the door hole an it will keep out the chill,
No pesky mortgage or utilities,
I can do this,
I like your way of thinking!
;-)
Dan
Dan <br>BlueRidgeCompany.com
sailawayrbUser is Offline
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05 Aug 2014 10:07 AM
While you and Badger might feel right at home in a cave or underground, our customers largely still prefer living above ground in affordable, modestly sized, single-story, highly energy efficient, new building construction. Since you again can’t provide any factual data for a substantive debate on the subject of this post and you apparently feel the need to again digress…we have actually visited some very nice cave homes in both Afghanistan and Pakistan. In fact, we even have an affiliate in Pakistan, Rehmat Ullah Kundi:

https://www.facebook.com/rampump

Rehmat is an amazing person both from a humanitarian and intellectual perspective. He received his electrical engineering master degree from the University of Kansas and he teaches electrical engineering at a local Pakistan university. You will see our company logo and his appreciation for our design efforts associated with his hydraulic ram pump, a device used to pump domestic and irrigation water without needing any electricity.

While I suspect both of you spend too much time at Tea Party meetings, I will still give you the benefit of doubt that you are NOT expanding your hate mongering to other countries and cultures such as Afghanistan just because they also don’t share your narrow views.
Borst Engineering & Construction LLC - Competence, Integrity and Professionalism are integral to all that we do!
ICFHybridUser is Offline
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05 Aug 2014 10:43 AM
A good rug over the door hole an it will keep out the chill,
What sort of R-value does that rug need to have, or is it just enough to use foam around the edges for airsealing?
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05 Aug 2014 10:51 AM
Sail away please,
I am now so confused, all this time I had thought you were the Tea Party associate, well well.
Yes the old trusty ram pump, I remember these in the early 80's on some out back lands used to lift H20, combined with turbines for 12 v power.
I am OK with your cubist design single story philosophy, never said I was not. Not sure how I have gone from online hawker Dan to Dan the Hate Monger, but as you wish.
But keep in mind when I sit in my hate mongering chair and look up at the cathedral ceiling in my mc mansion (2,200 FT2) that there is about 18" of insulation packed behind those dirt cheep scissor trusses that so nicely land on my 10' r 21 2x6 wall, that land on my R-30 platform that has sleepers and a radiant wood floor, that land over a crawl space where I still have the option to relocate mechanical items, electrical, plumbing so on.
Why wood floors? Ahh yes, I like wood floors,
Dan


Dan <br>BlueRidgeCompany.com
BadgerBoilerMNUser is Offline
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05 Aug 2014 11:00 AM
Oh boy, here we go.

I hold a BS in Political Science/ Latin American studies and international business , favorite international business instructor; native of Kenya.

Like the rest of your long-winded, self-ingratiating blathering, your politics and ours has nothing to do with the OP question.

Not surprised Dan's reference to cave living went over your head.

If you truly build mystical homes for hand-picked clients (presuming your politics align and they don't want floor coverings) with nothing but mud, sticks and few solar panels, good for you.

Design temperatures are determined by the heat load and emitter. Lower is better and, as it is with insulation, the Law of diminishing returns should dictate the DWT. We save more energy in our renovation business than would ever be possible in the relatively small new construction industry, much less the <2% that end up with radiant floors.

Hate? No.

Contempt for your pointless grandstanding on points of no interest to the OP. Yes.

Hydraulic rams? I have one...anything else you would like to waste the OP's time with?
MA<br>www.badgerboilerservice.com
sailawayrbUser is Offline
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06 Aug 2014 08:16 AM
No, I am done with this post. I provided the facts for the OP to consider and I even addressed all your irrelevant comments and questions for the entertainment value of the forum too. I conclude as I began...one should always take the time to accomplish proper research on a subject (e.g., John Siegenthaler’s Modern Hydronic Heating being the authority on this subject) and then carefully checkout the credentials (i.e., experience, knowledge, licensing, insurance and bonding) and the references (i.e., by directly contacting their previous customers) of any company that you hire. Even simply Googling a company's name with complaints/problems in the search field can be revealing and worthwhile.
Borst Engineering & Construction LLC - Competence, Integrity and Professionalism are integral to all that we do!
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