Need 'Spot on' Profession 1 time advice, please
Last Post 17 Nov 2014 07:47 PM by sailawayrb. 15 Replies.
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guruunoUser is Offline
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05 Sep 2014 05:31 PM
I have a room attached to the side of a 1950's built house that was/is used as an office. The room is approximately 18'6" deep x 13'6" wide. The ceiling slopes from a height of 12' down to 8'6", a basic rectangle. I am gutting to the studs/framing in preparation for a "wife requested" remodeling project to update the 65+ year old room. The room is on a concrete slab (much like a garage, and in actuality is just an extension of the garage with a partition wall separating it from the garage), however the room being renovated has an existing 2x10 framing on the slab with 3/4" sub-flooring and a rug. Our intention is to gut, foam insulate between the floor joists with 2"-3" of closed cell insulation, build a "ledger method" 3" down from the top of the floor joists (sketch attached) which becomes the new sub-sub floor which will have 7/8" (or 1/2"???) Pex tubing run on top of it between the joists and then with dry sand over the Pex between the joists with new 5/8" sub-flooring on top of the prepped floor and then 3/4" x 2-1/4" White Oak hardwood flooring. We've been planning this for 2+ years, and have got estimates from $4,000 to $12,000, when the radiant floor items are about $1,000 for materials (just for the Pex, fittings, pumps, gauges, etc.)....not heat source decided upon as of yet. Which is why I am posting here. At first we were thinking on demand tankless, then a Navien boiler, then a Polaris hot water heater, but each one seems to have pluses, minuses and my head is spinning like a yo-yo. One person says this, another that, I've researched 100's of online sites and obtained various opinions about the right and wrong way, wether or not to do it with a hot water heater, 1/2" or 7/8" Pex, etc. The floor is approximately 250 square feet. The system will be a 'Closed Loop System', no other items are to be supplied by the heat source. (We have forced hot air, and an existing hot water heater). Local codes will not allow tie in to the existing hot water heater. However, one says replacing the heater every 3-4 years will be the norm, others say a boiler is overkill. I figure I need to hope somebody can point me in the right direction with proper information, as suppliers want to sell you their items and validate them, installers want to profess their track record, and here in NJ this is not the normal heat source for residential. So, summary overview: IF a hot water heater is used, what specs for the dimensions/square footage? Positives and negatives? IF a Navien boiler is used, positives, negatives? IF an on demand system is used (like a Takagi), pluses and minuses? I'm confused......
sailawayrbUser is Offline
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05 Sep 2014 08:49 PM
There are likely infinite opinions when it comes to what heat source is best for a hydronic radiant heating system. Asking for guidance about this on a forum like this will likely only provide you with more data to get further confused about. I would first recommend getting a copy of John Siegenthaler’s Modern Hydronic Heating and get somewhat educated on this subject.

Before you can even begin thinking about selecting a heat source, you first need to do a proper hydronic radiant heating system design to determine the required supply temps, flow rates, and PEX size/spacing for the circuits. Before you can do a hydronic radiant heating system design, you first need to do a proper room-by-room heat loss analysis. We have free DIY heat loss analysis and hydronic radiant floor heating design analysis software on our website that you might want exercise after first reading the associated instructions:

Borst Heat Loss Analysis Software

Borst Hydronic Radiant Floor Heating Design Software

Once you accomplish all this, you can begin to narrow down the heat source options and then perhaps do some internet research to determine the best name brands for the given option you have selected. Most reputable HVAC companies try to avoid making a specific brand recommendation. The companies that do are often receiving a commission from the companies that they highly recommend.

Your proposed design sounds like it may involve having a significant amount of wood between the PEX and the living space (5/8” subfloor + 3/4" hardwood floor)? Wood is a thermal insulator (i.e., it has a relatively high R-value compared to say concrete or tile). So the more wood you have translates to reduced heating system efficiency (i.e., higher supply temps will be required to generate the required heat transfer). You will get a lot of options about this too so you would again be well advised to read Siegenthaler and run the design numbers yourself to form your own educated opinion.
Borst Engineering & Construction LLC - Competence, Integrity and Professionalism are integral to all that we do!
guruunoUser is Offline
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05 Sep 2014 10:19 PM
Thanks so far, digesting the information........
Blueridgecompany.comUser is Offline
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06 Sep 2014 10:49 AM
alternate choice,
you have a 250 square foot area, sounds like you are going to do a fine job insulating with spray foam,
Forget the sand, it is an insulator and will not serve you well in this application.
Think about a low temp surface mount system on top of your cuttent plywood/ joist system. You then can apply a floating flor or nail down floor on top.
We provide RHT floor panel system, there are other systems as well. These are effective run about 3.00 sq ft and are easy owner install.
You might also consider a small electric boiler, self contained, dedicated to the 2 loop of pipe you will need if doing a floor panel system (8" pattern of pex =250x1.5= 375' ) round up and your at about 2 loops 200'. This eliminated a costly gas appliance that would be way oversized for your actual need, spend the money on insulation.
Dan

Dan <br>BlueRidgeCompany.com
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06 Sep 2014 02:42 PM
We don’t like to recommend what you should purchase until after actually completing a proper design as previously described.

For example, if we assume 10 BTU/H/SF or 2500 BTU/H total heat loss (and 10% of this being downward floor heat loss) for your 250 SF room and a 12 inch PEX spacing (the maximum recommended spacing for bare-foot friendly residential construction) a single 250 feet circuit design may suffice for your under-floor HR emitter that is covered with a 3/4" hardwood floor. For this illustrative design example, the required floor surface temp would be 74.5F using a heat source supply temp of 109.5F. You would only need a circulator pump that provides 0.34 GPM at 1.8 feet of head (ideally provided at the center of performance curve of the selected pump). These numbers are based on using an under-floor plate system HR emitter and allowed circuit delta T of 15F. We don't have any experience with the proposed ledger board method and our free DIY hydronic radiant software doesn't specifically model this method either.

If your HR emitter were instead a concrete slab without the hardwood floor covering, you would only need a heat source supply temp of 89.6F. If your heat loss was only 5 BTU/H/SF (i.e., perhaps typical of current energy efficient buildings) or 1250 BTU/H total, your required floor surface temp would drop to 72.3F and you would only require a heat source supply temp of 86.0F for this concrete slab emitter. This illustrates why we are big fans of energy efficient building construction and why we are not big fans of under-floor plate HR emitters.

If your heat loss is more than this 10 BTU/H/SF assumption, the PEX spacing would have to be reduced accordingly which could perhaps require a two circuit design (i.e., you should typically never exceed 300 feet per circuit when using 0.5" diameter PEX or the pipe friction can become excessive) and correspondingly higher floor surface and heat source supply temps too.

If this 10 BTU/H/SF heat loss assumption is realistic, even a hot water tank is overkill for this project. A hot water tank also acts like a buffer tank which is often required to prevent short cycling in a small system like this (please see our buffer tank design calculator instructions for more detailed info about this). However, some states don’t allow hot water tanks to be legally used for this application unless they are rated for space heating. We would estimate this design could be accomplished as a DIY project for less than $2000. You could get increased efficiency and lower monthly utility bills by stepping up and investing in say a mod con boiler or heat pump heat source. However, only a good ROI analysis would tell you if there is any economic merit in doing this.

There are also some important installation details that first need to be well understood and addressed before purchasing any hydronic radiant heating system components. Again, Siegenthaler has great info about this that any reasonably technically literate and handy person can easily successfully accomplish.
Borst Engineering & Construction LLC - Competence, Integrity and Professionalism are integral to all that we do!
jonrUser is Offline
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06 Sep 2014 08:04 PM
As Dan says, use aluminum plates, not sand. But in a well insulated room, the floor isn't going to be that warm - so consider just tying into your existing hot air system. Some have even used well heated, "conditioned" crawlspace/joist bays for a radiant floor from a hot air source.
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07 Sep 2014 10:34 AM
Related to the pipe pattern,
RHT floor panel system is fixed 8" pattern, surface mounted to the plat form 3/4" thick.
Therefore if this system is used it it would require 2 loops (8" pattern of pex =250x1.5= 375' ) .
I am not sure what the spacing is on alternat surface mount systems.
Can a 250 square foot room be done with 1 250-300 foot loop, sure.
Dan
Dan <br>BlueRidgeCompany.com
sailawayrbUser is Offline
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07 Sep 2014 11:07 AM
Yes verily, if the heat transfer calls for a 12 inch spacing and the fluid dynamics allow for it (i.e., the pipe friction will be acceptable at the required flow rate), then a single 250 foot circuit is entirely appropriate for 0.5 inch PEX and a 15F allowed delta T (i.e., the maximum delta T recommended for residential). You typically don’t want to exceed 300 feet with 0.5 inch PEX. There certainly wouldn’t be any harm in using two 125 foot circuits either and you could then tighten the delta T (perhaps to 10F) if you wanted to.

Most HR design software (including the free DIY software on our website) will tell you the MINIMUM number of circuits that are required. You can always use more circuits than the minimum number that are required. However, if the minimum number of circuits required is 1 and you also only have 1 heating zone, you have the option of saving the expense of purchasing a manifold station.
Borst Engineering & Construction LLC - Competence, Integrity and Professionalism are integral to all that we do!
guruunoUser is Offline
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07 Sep 2014 06:49 PM
I should have listened:
"Asking for guidance about this on a forum like this will likely only provide you with more data to get further confused about."

We are blowing it all off, way overload with too much, and 1,000,000% unreliable response from contractors/tradespersons.

I ran a very successful remodeling business for 20 years, and changed careers because of things like not having good subs, manufacturers discrepancies/warranties, etc.

Bottom line is if I can't even get 1 responsible person to return a call for an estimate, who you gonna trust?

Thanks all for the assistance, it was a plethora of information I will always appreciate.

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07 Sep 2014 08:46 PM
Yes, unfortunately we hear that all too often and usually after the customer was fleeced. At least that didn't happen to you! I neglected and should have also provided our recommendations for trying to hire a good company as explained in the hydronic radiant floor heating design section of our DIY software instruction manual:

Borst Software Instructions Manual

If you do not feel like you have the time or are up to the challenge of accomplishing this as a DIY project, there are likely some very good HVAC companies that legally and successfully accomplish hydronic radiant heating system design/installation in your area. There are also likely some companies that would be best avoided too, so you really need to spend some time to select a good one.

We would highly recommend that you Google search the company names that you are considering hiring by entering their company name plus "problems" and "complaints" into the search field to initially assess them and perhaps weed some out straight away.

In our State of Oregon, we have to be licensed, bonded and insured to legally operate here. We also have State contractor regulations that protect customers if there are any design/installation problems requiring resolution...as long as the customer first verifies and hires a company that is actually legally operating within the state. So we would also highly recommend carefully checking the company's credentials (experience, reputation, license status, bonding, insurance, and legal operating jurisdiction), requesting them to provide some customer references, and directly checking these references too.

Speaking of credentials, you do have to be wary about the significance of some State HVAC licenses because some States do not require very much competence or experience to obtain them. Licensing requirements for contractors in each State are published by the National Contractors Association at this website:

State HVAC License Requirements

Perhaps start getting worried if your State only has minimal State HVAC license requirements. Perhaps get very worried if your State does not have any State HVAC license requirements at all. Perhaps run away if you are considering hiring a company from one of these States that does not have any State HVAC license requirements that is soliciting business in your State that does have State HVAC license requirements…and perhaps make your State Attorney General aware of this situation too. We like professional State engineering licenses and State sub/general contractor licenses which have strict and vigorous education, experience, and testing requirements.

The same can be said about some Associations/Societies. In general, we do not put much credence in Associations or Alliances (e.g., Radiant Panel Association, Radiant Professionals Alliance, etc.) which typically sell memberships to any company that simply pays their membership fee. So Alliances/Associations are typically more about marketing and making the companies that purchase their memberships appear competent. This not to say that all companies that are members of Alliances/Associations are incompetent. It is just that these Alliances/Associations do not typically have any membership acceptance criteria that evaluates actual HVAC competence and experience. Some of the so called “certifications” provided by these associations and alliances require even less competence and experience to obtain than what is required to operate in the States that have minimal or no HVAC license requirements at all. In fact, there was a study done several years ago that showed the vast majority of these certifications went to companies that were based in the States that did not have any HVAC licensing requirements at all. We speculate that having a certification that few potential customers know is practically worthless is far better than not having anything at all when it comes to marketing and soliciting business. We like Professional Societies like the American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME) and American Society of Heating, Refrigeration and Air Conditioning Engineers (ASHRAE) which have strict and vigorous membership acceptance criteria.

Even the Better Business Bureau (BBB) has been accused of some shady business practices in recent years, so you may not want to put too much credence in them either:

Better Business Bureau Concerns

Other than that…please don’t worry…be happy…and carefully select a company that legally and successfully accomplishes hydronic radiant heating system design/installation in your State!
Borst Engineering & Construction LLC - Competence, Integrity and Professionalism are integral to all that we do!
guruunoUser is Offline
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08 Sep 2014 08:43 AM
An additional thank you is in order for the amount of time allotted me. Thank you, thank you.

However, now, being a computer consultant, I know how to search with Google and know the deepest methods for researching companies, persons (yes, even background checks).

Hence, utilizing that information, I still find it next to impossible to get any response from "valid" contractors/companies.

As a reference, my research led me to a "Radiant Professionals Alliance " )http://www.radiantprofessionalsalliance.org/Pages/default.aspx), which gave me the names of a few 'qualified' companies/contractors in the 75 mile radius of my home.

ONE person responded via e-mail only after sending hime a second e-mail (to 'wake him up'???), and I only asked for a ballpark number after supplying him with sketches, square footage, etc. (more than enough to validate a rough estimate which would then initiate a formal, onsite assessment). Well, to make things easier, here's a copy of THAT correspondence:

Thanks for taking time to chat today. We’d like to get a rough estimate to have you install 7/8” pex tubing/radiant floor system w/independent hot water heater to supply the system Approximately 250 sq. feet, I’ll have all demolition and preparation work done, cost needed is for you to do installation, labor and materials for radiant floor system.

Attached sketch is supplied for reference.

Please contact me with any questions, etc.

His reply:
Rough cost would be between 8,000.00 and 9,000.00.

My response:
Thanks for getting back to me with the rough estimate.

I just want to verify the cost before we schedule an onsite visual to solidify the estimate.

Between $8,000 & $9,000 is the cost with what items as part of the cost?

As I’ve indicated in my previous correspondence, I’ll be doing all demo and prep work (including the ‘ledger method’ to insert the Pex tubing), and all that I need from you is the labor and materials to supply and install. (i.e., 7/8” PEX, adaptors, couplings, tubing straps, single zone pump, controls, valves, gauges and independent hot water supply for radiant floor system).

Although I understand an on demand hydronic water heater is the product of choice, I’d like the estimate as well as the pros and cons of a hot water heater vs. dedicated on demand for the project.

Again, thanks for the rough estimate, but I want to be clear on what the cost of your estimate includes, etc.

So, finding a "professional" who would even just respond to an inquiry was frustrating to say the least, let alone even getting estimates.

The industry is extremely flooded with unqualified so called professionals, and as a former contractor (still with ties to various industries in the home remodeling field, so I know the issues with subs, suppliers, warranties, insurance, and the whole big pot of issues that have got even worse in the last 25 years), I shudder to think of how I might survive. Sure, 1 person with a qualified, groomed, mirror imaged helper might survive (like I did), but for the most part I see everyone looking to make home runs just to get involved, unless there is a major economic downturn and they all get hungry for any work to survive.

Again, thanks all for the responses, assistance, everything positive here, but alas, 2 years of hard work, preparation, studying, and to be brick walled with limited resources for qualified, competent, and varying levels of opinion (and minimal facts.....), leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.
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08 Sep 2014 08:46 AM
BTW, that 'rough' estimate above, was never responded to from the contractor after my inquiry......
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08 Sep 2014 09:41 AM
Yes, unfortunately Alliances and Associations tend to be more about marketing the companies that have purchased their membership as I mentioned previously. It can be very challenging and frustrating finding good HR heating system companies in some areas. However, I would have expected NJ to have a number of good companies and to be a competitive area allowing you to obtain a reasonable bid too. I am very sorry to hear about your experience.
Borst Engineering & Construction LLC - Competence, Integrity and Professionalism are integral to all that we do!
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17 Nov 2014 02:58 PM
The OP would likely be more comfortable in a nice warm and fuzzy DIY forum where licensed contractor bashing goes unchallenged, neh is even applauded.

I can find a competent radiant floor heating installer nearly anywhere in N. America. Design is a different matter. There are many whom have never laid down a foot of PEX professing expertise here and elsewhere.
MA<br>www.badgerboilerservice.com
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17 Nov 2014 07:27 PM
You said, "I can find a competent radiant floor heating installer nearly anywhere in N. America" Please provide me 3 'competent' radiant floor contractors, with at minimum, 3-4 installed jobs to use for references (yes, call, talk, look, go to, see, feel, touch, ask questions of) in my area (08840), and I'd give your statement consideration. I'm not bashing anyone, I'm a former Professional Remodeling contractor of 25 years who was a successful and highly regarded one because I believed in knowing my products, choosing what manufacturers to use or not, and what employees to fire or keep (or subs). Without getting into a war of words, I've spent the last 14 months interviewing contractors, pricing materials, investigating options, asking all the right questions, BEFORE making a purchasing commitment on a host of items in addition to the radiant floor, and I must say it's a joke. Trainees thrust into positions where only a handful of them were knowledgeable, most show up because they are a warm body who needs a steady paycheck and have some skills, but the top shelf real deals want astronomical prices for basic items, like sheetrock, insulation, electrical, plumbing.....everyone want's to make a home run. They see the Lexus, the Porsche, they see the level of lifestyle, and they go for it. Is that the way it's supposed to be? Not in my day. Maybe that's why I'm still working part time. On the other hand, Marty and Larry made so many home runs (like having a 80 year old woman sign a second mortgage for $185 month for a $25,000 trim job), and they are now living in Boca being driven in a Rolls....) My point is, maybe in New England or areas of the country where there is competition for the work, and skilled tradespersons who have skills for radiant flooring there is real world availability, but not here in NJ....only for the 1%, and it's a minimal amount to them. I hope my point is understood, I'm not trying to generate conflict, all I am doing (or was trying to achieve) was to get the right answers, and the right person for a fair price, which is non-existent. The room is progressing without any radiant floor heating, and in my next life I'll hopefully plan for those types of amenities earlier in life to be able to afford and enjoy them.
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17 Nov 2014 07:47 PM
Well, I for one believe you Guruuno... BTW, my husband grew up in NJ and completed his undergraduate engineering degree at Stevens Institute of Technology in Hoboken, NJ before heading west and meeting me. He still says that he misses the food...
Borst Engineering & Construction LLC - Competence, Integrity and Professionalism are integral to all that we do!
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