Hello,

I'm looking to retrofit a 1924 Bungalow in Portland, Oregon (97211) with staple-up radiant on the main floor and hot water radiators in the upstairs room and on an addition at rear of the house. Also need advice about minimally heating the basement and what to do in terms of future planning if we eventually plan to finish off some of that space. The house currently has a 1980-ish forced air gas furnace.

I have sketches and measurements of the entire house and windows, etc. -- with the exception of the 1990-era room addition, it's all single-glazed, minimal wall insulation in some rooms and R30 in the attic.

I would need load heat loss calcs, tubing layouts, manifold/pump schematics, controls, and boiler and radiator sizing and manufacturer suggestions. I worked in construction a number of years and have done a fair amount of plumbing, etc. My intent would be to do it all DIY with the exception of the actual boiler hook up and adjustment.

Does anyone have any recommendations for someone that provides these sort of design services.... I think I'd prefer the "pay for design," route over the "design included with purchase of products" route. Though, I'm flexible.

Thanks,

Brad

We are licensed to design and install HR systems in Oregon. While we could design your HR system, we only install HR systems in energy efficient new building construction and we don’t do remodels. We also don’t recommend under-floor HR systems because they are the opposite of energy efficient. We also have DIY HR system design instructions and the required software on our website that would enable you to successfully accomplish the design yourself for free.

Thanks. I'm guessing they are not as inefficient as my 180,000 BTU short-cycling 1980 furnace though. I'm mainly looking for it to be as efficient as possible given that it is an underfloor retrofit (though only on 1200 feet of the main, the rest will be radiators) and as comfortable as possible, because what we have now is overly hot, unpleasant hot air when the system is on, and cold when it goes off. Thanks for the info though -- I'm definitely looking for someone other than me to do at least the calculations part.

Yes, true enough...

As you indicated, you will likely get a better design if you actually pay a competent company to do the design. The “design” you typically get going the “design included with purchase of products” route is a CAD PEX tube layout drawing. While this is nice to have, it is likely the least important design element. Most competent and experienced installers don't need to use a PEX layout drawing and can nail the required circuit lengths and proper placement without it.

You should strive to obtain a real HR system design that provides the PEX size, PEX spacing, number of circuits per zone, circuit lengths, circuit flow rates, circuit supply/return temps, circuit balance valve Cv settings, HR system mechanical component diagram and list (allowing you to purchase these items where you can obtain best product/price) and an appropriate heat source recommendation.

Before a HR system can be designed, you must accomplish a reasonably accurate room-by-room, month-by-month heat loss analysis. Manual J is the lowest quality heat loss analysis that we would recommend.

Please feel free to check out our consultation and design rates on our website if you are not amenable to accomplishing these analyses as a DIY project.

Thanks again.... your rates seem reasonable. You may get a call.

Zerofi,

Sorry for the delay, you were intercepted by the dream-bot. She lives in Utopia, where everything is perfectly GREEN, all the time. She doesn't believe in what your doing but she will help you do it. Don't drink the Koolaid!

I live in Realville and have been designing, installing and servicing practical and efficient hydronic based heating systems since 1987 all the time trying to keep my considerable ego in check. In this I humbly admit I have often fail...

To wit, my company Badger Boiler Service is licensed, bonded and insured to install plumbing, steam/hot water and gas in the City of Minneapolis where I personally hold a master's license in these trades.

Your plan is sound. Though true "staple up" is rare these days requiring hotter water - more energy - than most thing is reasonable. We design and install many sub-floor radiant systems here in Minneapolis, a decidedly more challenging climate than say; Oregon. Still I type this while sitting on a 72 degree floor with the boiler running at 105 degrees supply water temperature. The temperature outside is 13 degrees. This is efficient by any rational standard even if you know-it-all. I achieved my current comfort by using extruded aluminum plates and PEX tubing. I of course started with dedicated radiant floor software based on the oldest and still most reliable ACCA Manual 'J" 8.

We are just finishing a design such as yours and will start a DIY refit next week perpetuated by the helpers at a big box store here in Minneapolis. It is wise to get some experienced, open-minded help before diving in.

We can do it, you can help.

Mr. Audetat, it is always nice to see that your anger management classes are going well, LOL!

Badger Boiler Service illegally operates from a State that does not require HVAC licensing into States that do require HVAC licensing (and also require bonding/insurance to protect their customers). Always at least Google a company name and “complaint problems” to search for customer feedback before hiring a company. Read this post to learn more about how to avoid hiring companies that give the HVAC industry a bad reputation:

Green Building Talk HVAC Company Problems

Thanks Badger....

Yes, by "staple-up," I was thinking pex with aluminum plates with insulation underneath-- I may not completely understand the history of the terminology. Do you supply the same sort of comprehensive analysis, design and instruction?

Yes Z,

I do in fact, legally operate a licensed, bonded and insured mechanical contracting firm in Minneapolis, MN where nearly every trade is strictly licensed and the code enforced with vigor. I also consult on, and design hydronics based HVAC systems for other firms, architects and even homeowners.

http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/mdr/buildingpermits/index.htm

By the way you might be interested in my credentials and the fact that everyone here knows my name...

http://www.badgerboilerservice.com/experience.html

Casting aspersions, like shoveling manure, is hard to do without getting some on yourself.

Right, you can legally operate in the City of Minneapolis and in the State of MN, and perhaps in other similar States that don’t have any State HVAC regulations. However, the better States such as OR do protect their residents and do have unique State HVAC regulations (unique State licensing, bonding and insurance requirements) and if you solicit business or operate in these States without meeting these unique State requirements, you are doing so illegally. Most States also have business operations taxes which companies are obligated to pay as well. Anyhow, I took a screen shot and sent it to our OR State Attorney General and copied your MN State Attorney General too. This way you don’t have to take my word for it, you will hopefully get it from a higher authority.

Not sure if you have problems with women, ethical people/companies, or just anyone with an IQ higher than 80. Not sure why I really care as any problems you create become your customer’s problems, but problem HVAC contractors do hurt the reputation of the HVAC industry. Yes, we all know your name and about your unhappy MN customers too. I will spare you from posting links to their blogs again. Nevertheless, you might want to focus on cleaning up your act in MN before venturing out too far.