Posted By Maril555 on 11 Jan 2015 10:10 AM
I intent on living in that home for at least 10-15 years. Haven't considered a geothermal. Don't even have a vaguest idea of the possible cost. Still, no one has answered the most important question, I asked. Comparative cost of hydronic radiant floors vs. low heat water radiators. This is the first dilemma, I need to solve!!!

You really need to select your water heating source first.  An electric boiler can provide higher water temperature than a geothermal heatpump, but at a significant operating cost penalty.  Hydronic radiant wood floors will work better with a higher temperature water supply.  So, if you decide on hydronic radiant floors, then select a geothermal heatpump, this may not be the optimum choice.

The heat load is first, then the emitter matched to the heat source, always the final step.

While we are discussing general philosophy, I try to avoid people who start out casting aspersions and end with "legal remedies". Especially those whom profess they never have and never will use such crude appliances such as a lowly panel radiator.

As Dan states, panel radiators are your low-cost alternative to perfect comfort (radiant floors) . The way we size them, every day, is to go to the manufacturers' (7 so far) specification sheet matching output at our desired design water temperature to the heat load in each room.

Thank you Dan, Actually your suggestions on using a combination of radiant floors and water radiators is appealing I would probably ask to design for the radiant floors in the finished basement (on concrete slab), and tiled bathrooms, and radiators in the areas with hardwood floors (living, dining, etc.) So I'd imagine, one boiler can be used to supply both systems, or should it be two separate boilers? And you even mentioned using boilers for both heat and hot water needs

one boiler will cover all needs, Domestic hot water is an option that has several solutions.
Usually before you go to the Domestic hot water side of things a fuel source needs to be determined.
It generally is not logical to use an electric boiler for domestic hot water, less expensive to simply buy a 50 gallon electric water heater.
Dedicate the electric boiler to the heating side.
Dan

Actually, Arkie’s point is relevant. If geothermal is being considered, you will want to stay away from inefficient hydronic radiant floor emitters (i.e., below-floor and cork/wood covered above-floor/slab designs).

With the exception of bathroom towel warming racks, I am not personally a fan of panel radiators. I find them to be eye sores and dust collectors.

The other question one should always ask themselves whenever you have a low load, energy efficient home is how many thousands of dollars do you really want to spend on a HVAC system just to provide a couple hundred dollars of annual heat?

As I understand a geothermal heat pump can heat efficiently to about 122 degrees.
More than adequate for most in-floor applications short possibly dependent on application of staple up.
Also adequate for low temp flat panel radiators.
Dan

"As I understand a geothermal heat pump can heat efficiently to about 122 degrees."

But why would you want to when you can get job done at 85 degrees? Mod con boilers like low temps so as to achieve maximum efficiency too. So lower supply temp is always efficiency goodness. Why advocate inefficient options with significantly increased operational cost on a green building forum?

Using Geo thermal at 122 degree available (read anywhere from 60 degrees to 122 your choice as designer) would provide the option for slab, slab with cork engineered on top, platform with sleepers and traditional nail down wood floor, low temp flat panel radiators, and a lot more options shall I continue?
The options are wide, all these solutions could be done with electric boiler, condensing boiler, wood fired boiler as well as others.
Geo if the up front cost is acceptable is a good option with many heat emitter solutions.
Thats all,

I understand the options, but there is a huge performance/efficiency difference between operating geothermal or a condensing boiler at 60 degrees versus 122 degrees. So why advocate the most inefficient and most expensive hydronic emitter options be used with the most efficient and most expensive heat source options such the overall result will be a less efficient system than could be achieved by using far cheaper options? Is the goal to maximize the customer’s HVAC system acquisition cost and operational cost?

I can understand why contractors do this on other forums because contractor profit margin is proportional to acquisition cost. However, this is a green building forum where the audience largely wants to minimize energy use and operational cost.

I am not advocating anything
I thought this was an information forum first.
I mistakenly neglected to read the rules of dialogue here , again.
My humble apologies for pointing out options.
Please please do not report me to the green cyber policing group on this forum.
Dan

No harm, no foul...just wanted to clarify my point and my associated question. It's all good information and options are good too...as long as you fully understand the pros/cons of each option.

Thank you guys for the excellent information :
Allow me to recap:
Before everything listed below,mill do ( or likely hire someone) to do thorough heat load analysis
1. I don't think I'm going to go with geothermal ( too expensive for initial investment).
A. Will do either electric boiler for the radiant heat ( combination of the hydronic floors in the basement and in tiled spaces- bathrooms, laundry, powder room, and water radiators in the rest of the space with hardwood floors)
Plus electric hot water heater
B. Gas heater with on site gas tank ( no pipe gas line available)
2. With regards to a water radiators- to my understanding, actual old- style radiators are more efficient, than flat panels ( like Myson T6)???
So, please critique and make other suggestions, please

Efficiency is less a function of the style of radiator and more a function of the supply temp that is needed to achieve the required surface temp for a given radiator surface area to provide the required heat gain to the room. So given two radiators having the same surface area, the radiator that achieves this required surface temp using a lower supply temp would be more efficient.

We put a small wood/water heater in the basement and hooked it up to 6 pex tubing loops in a 4" concrete slab. Our winter heat is nearly free since I cut our own firewood. It is a very simple system. When you get cool just build a fire, when the water warms the circulation pump kicks on and warms the entire floor. Build fires as needed.

What?
No manual J or professional advice/atta boy from a certifiable one . . . _ _ _ . . .
Excellent!!
Dan

Yes, outstanding KMH! Hydronic radiant floor heating can be as simple/complicated, inexpensive/expensive, and low/high performance as you desire and is certainly a great DIY project if one understands the fundamentals and knows what they are doing. You certainly avoided the complicated/expensive/low performance system that many contractors advocate. Check out the DIY information and free design software on our website sometime too.

Equivalent Direct Radiation (EDR). Panel radiators sized the the load and the desired design water temperature.

I'm trying to understand subjective difference in how one " feels" in a room heated by traditional column type radiators, that mostly produced radiant heat, vs. baseboards, that work mostly by convection. Baseboards are also significantly less expensive. Is the extra expense, involved with the radiators correlates well with the extra degree of subjective comfort?

The comfort difference isn’t so much about convective versus radiant heat transfer. The comfort difference is more about having moving air versus not having moving air. Hydronic radiant floor heating and radiant panels do NOT move air, however, the heat transfer is about 50% convective and 50% radiant. Most people tend to feel that not having moving air is more comfortable. Most people also tend to feel that having the radiant portion of the heat transfer occur on the lower half of their body (i.e., hydronic radiant floor heating) is more comfortable. Only each person can decide how much this additional comfort is worth and you really have to experience the difference first-hand before you can decide.

I like radiant heating because it keeps both outdoor and indoor area warm. I have used ventis ventilation system because it not only removes harmful dust and allergens but also circulates fresh, warm, dry and clean air around the home. One can see this link www.ventis.com.au for how it works.