Is there consensus on the best above joist HR panel?
Last Post 27 Feb 2015 08:23 AM by sailawayrb. 15 Replies.
Printer Friendly
Sort:
PrevPrev NextNext
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Author Messages
dmcdevittUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:4

--
19 Jan 2015 01:45 PM
Is there a consensus on the best above joist radiant floor panel to use for my situation: New construction, 1st floor is 2800 ft2 with basement below so can use Warmboard, Raupanel, Roth, Viego, Uponor, etc but each have different pro/con. It appears Warmboard (1-1/8") is only one that can also be used as the subfloor. I found the below from a Virginia Tech study which implies Raupanel best for heat output. COMPARISON OF FLOOR OUTPUT (Btu/hr/ft2) WITH 110°F INPUT WATER TEMPERATURE: Joist Space, aluminum louvers in air cavities, 24" spacing (Ultra-Fin) 5.6 Btu/hr/ft2; Joist Space, no heat transfer plates, 8" spacing 7 Btu/hr/ft2; Structural plywood with aluminum facing, 12" spacing (WarmBoard) 17.5 Btu/hr/ft2; Thin plywood with aluminum backing, 7" spacing (Quik-Trak) 18 Btu/hr/ft2; Joist Space with heavy gauge extruded aluminum plates, 8" spacing (Thin-Fin) 18 Btu/hr/ft2; Gypsum cement overpour 1 1/2" thick, 8" spacing 18.5 Btu/hr/ft2; Expanded PS base with aluminum plates, 6" spacing (Roth) 19.1 Btu/hr/ft2; MDF board with foil face, 8" spacing (ThermalBoard) 19.5 Btu/hr/ft2; RAUPANEL 8" spacing 28 Btu/hr/ft2; RAUPANEL 6" spacing 30 Btu/hr/ft2; There is a lot of great information here and new users like me really appreciate the sharing of info. Thank you, Dan
sailawayrbUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2270
Avatar

--
19 Jan 2015 06:02 PM
Consensus…not likely… Folks who hang out here largely just market what they sell. So do your own research and make your own decision. Lots of good information in John Siegenthaler’s Modern Hydronic Heating. Cheapest and best performance is from concrete slab hydronic radiant emitters. It only gets more expensive and lower performance from there…especially if you feel the need to cover the emitter with insulating material like hardwood or carpet. As the supply temp that is needed to accomplish the required heat load gets higher, the performance gets lower (i.e., your operational cost gets higher). Good luck!
Borst Engineering & Construction LLC - Competence, Integrity and Professionalism are integral to all that we do!
BadgerBoilerMNUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2010

--
19 Jan 2015 07:23 PM
Sorry dmc, your question was intercepted by our resident "smarmybot". Even though she has never, and will never, specify anything but "dreamy green systems" using suspended PEX in perfectly insulated slabs, blah, blah, blah, she never misses a chance to defecate on the opinions of others; even before they voice them!

To your erudite question. Obviously you have already done you "research" and came to the logical conclusion that there are too many choices and not enough experience. We have installed or replaced all of the sub-floor hydronic radiant floor (HRF) systems you listed, plus a couple unworthy of mention here.

First an ACCA Manual 'J" room-by-room heat load to determine the output required of each floor weighted mostly by the construction, windows and floor coverings (performance is a relative thing, so choose the flooring you like and consult with an experienced designer before you throw out the carpet, wood and bamboo. We have designed many animal husbandry barns and many have never had floor temperatures or supply water temperatures above 75°F. Concrete is good, if you are a barnyard animal. We humans like warmer, softer floors, most of the time.

I just designed a rather large home with HRF and specified Warmboard as it fit the project for performance and overall cost of installation. Note, we do not "sell" Warmboard, no one but Warmboard can do that, as it is normally sold direct to the builder/owner. We do however, design many HRF systems utilizing Warmboard and some of the other sub-floor systems you listed using varied heat sources matching the required performance to the best possible boiler, water heater, GSHP etc. This judgement gained from experience you cannot get from a book, or free heat load program. seriously.

We do a lot of renovation work and use aluminum plates fastened below the floor to heat the majority of them. On occasion we use a gypsum or concrete over-pour product for its superior sound and/or fire qualities.

Much depends on your source of fuel, since incremental reductions in design water temperatures do not guarantee linear reductions in fuel usage and don't forget comfort since we build for it in the first place.
MA<br>www.badgerboilerservice.com
sailawayrbUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2270
Avatar

--
19 Jan 2015 09:37 PM
Oh, I forgot to mention. Always check a company’s credentials carefully before hiring them. Even a simple Google search with the company’s name and “complaint” or “problems” in the search field can be very enlightening. And always remember, it’s not how much bad experience a contractor has accumulated that counts…it’s how much good customer experience a contractor has generated that counts.

The other question one should always ask themselves whenever you have a low load, energy efficient home is how many thousands of dollars do you really want to spend on a HVAC system just to provide a couple hundred dollars of annual heat?
Borst Engineering & Construction LLC - Competence, Integrity and Professionalism are integral to all that we do!
BadgerBoilerMNUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2010

--
20 Jan 2015 09:15 AM
There she goes again...
MA<br>www.badgerboilerservice.com
ChrisJUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:277

--
20 Jan 2015 10:05 AM
Nice to be perfect isn't it... Professionalism at it's best...

Looks pretty logical, closer spacing more BTU's/sq ft.

Chris



sailawayrbUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2270
Avatar

--
20 Jan 2015 01:21 PM
Yes, perfection and customer satisfaction is always the goal. Some get there and some never do!
Borst Engineering & Construction LLC - Competence, Integrity and Professionalism are integral to all that we do!
dmcdevittUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:4

--
26 Jan 2015 12:07 AM
Thanks for the feedback. A couple of questions for those with experience.

Since Warmboard also serves as the subfloor, how well does it and the metal sheathing hold up to the trades working over it until everything is finished well enough to lay tube and put down the hardwood?

Also I assume the only way to humidify the house is via a conventional humidifier via the ductwork (that I would have to install for A/C). Are there other modes or systems?

Thank you.
BadgerBoilerMNUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2010

--
26 Jan 2015 11:22 AM
Warmboard is tough.

The tubing channels are full of work debris. A little disconcerting considering the cost, but when we sweep and vacuum 99% of the floor will look and work great. Humidity is a lifestyle thing in a new home. In my own recent 1921 farmhouse remodel we empty-nesters seem to get by with the moisture generated by the morning shower, teapot and cooking, with judicial use of the ERV.

Size matters.

PS you can use tighter spacing and gain a few btu's in front of the window, but since the bench, and likely the table, will block the window's view of the radiant floor the effect is nil, much like the real-world experience of the sailor. Stick to the books, leave the OP to their own conclusions.
MA<br>www.badgerboilerservice.com
sailawayrbUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2270
Avatar

--
27 Jan 2015 08:27 AM
Warmboard works well, but it is on the expensive side of hydronic radiant floor heating. If you need heating/AC/dehumidification, you might want to check out ductless mini splits as a lower cost and more energy efficient approach.
Borst Engineering & Construction LLC - Competence, Integrity and Professionalism are integral to all that we do!
BadgerBoilerMNUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2010

--
28 Jan 2015 10:50 AM
Actually, if you are building a new house and you intend to heat upper floor levels, i.e. not the basement slab, Warmboard is competitive with other radiant floor assemblies such as over-pouring gypsum or concrete floors and certainly will compete on large projects with the many sub-floor and sandwich systems we use in renovation and small additions.

Expensive is a relative term.
MA<br>www.badgerboilerservice.com
Juan BoqueteroUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2

--
18 Feb 2015 08:37 PM
Hi folks, new to this forum. I plan to put radiant flooring in the 1st floor (1,500sqft) of which 900sqft has a 20 inch unheated and VERY drafty crawlspace over dirt. The second floor has been spray foamed with 4.5" closed cell on the walls and 7.5" on the ceilings, it is VERY warm on the 2nd floor with heat radiating through the ceiling only. However the 1st floor feels cold even when the air temp is 75 because of the drafty floors. (eventually the 1st floor will have spray foam in walls as well) All this being said, for a DYI project and comfort being the #1 concern, will Warmboard or Raupanel fit the bill considering this crawl space. BTW, I heat with an outdoor wood boiler and the wood is free minus my time. Juan
BadgerBoilerMNUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2010

--
19 Feb 2015 01:22 PM
What will you do for floor covering on the main floor?
MA<br>www.badgerboilerservice.com
Juan BoqueteroUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2

--
20 Feb 2015 08:25 AM
Nothing, floors will be engineered wood (Pergo or the like) and possibly tile in the Kitchen. For the last month we have been averaging -5f to -20f for nighttime lows and the furnace runs constantly. We currently run the OWB through a plenum if the old oil burning furnace. Wife likes to keep the house at 75 (I know, I know). Part of the problem is that when your feet are cold you feel cold even when the air temp is a comfortable 72! I'm just worried about the radiant being able to maintain that temp when it is (albeit for a short time) -25f outside!
BadgerBoilerMNUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2010

--
20 Feb 2015 08:45 AM
The only way to assure a warm floor is to model the house on a dedicated radiant software program. The higher the thermostat setting the more likely the floor will feel warm.

We get many calls for low-heat from under-performing radiant floors. Most have not been installed properly. Many have no plates or poor plates or poor insulation--foil does not count.

A proper heat load will predict the floor temperature at design conditions and whether the floor will satisfy.
MA<br>www.badgerboilerservice.com
sailawayrbUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2270
Avatar

--
27 Feb 2015 08:23 AM
Many things affect the performance of a hydronic radiant floor heating system. This is why it needs to be properly designed and installed. The steps are: 1) accomplish the heat loss analysis; 2) accomplish the hydronic radiant floor heating system design; 3) size/select the pump(s); 4) size/select the heat source; and 5) accomplish the installation using best practices.

Borst Heat Loss Analysis

Borst Hydronic Radiant Floor Heating Design Software

It is amazing how many companies start/finish with only step 5) and don’t allows follow best installation practices either. This approach is often called "catalog design"...


Borst Engineering & Construction LLC - Competence, Integrity and Professionalism are integral to all that we do!
You are not authorized to post a reply.

Active Forums 4.1
Membership Membership: Latest New User Latest: hudson2000 New Today New Today: 0 New Yesterday New Yesterday: 2 User Count Overall: 34707
People Online People Online: Visitors Visitors: 87 Members Members: 0 Total Total: 87
Copyright 2011 by BuildCentral, Inc.   Terms Of Use  Privacy Statement