So I know this is a job best left to the pros, but I am on a very tight budget. I am an extreme handy man, I do everything, and most of the time I do it better than the specialist, albeit a bit slower. I have never messed with HVAC other than minor repairs. So I'm about to remodel a small 850 sq ft house I just bought, so I can accommodate my family of 5. It will then be 1280 sq ft. Right now it has 2 propane floor furnaces, but I have a toddler and using these will be a pain and safety hazard. So I think I have decided on hydronic floor heat via propane tankless wh. I have countless hours into research, but mostly I have found lots of conflicting info. It seems this is not an exact science yet. I do know that I just want it on one zone( I think), but it will have multiple loops. I'm planning on 8 inch pipe spacing, I think with four equal size loops about 450 feet each. But I may need more as some sites say you shouldn't exceed 300 feet per loop, but others have said you can go to 6 or 700. The only real difference in any of the rooms is the bedrooms will be carpet, living room wood, and baths tile. There is no real difference in heat loss for the rooms. I know that the r-value of the carpet will be about twice that of the wood. And I don't mind at all the bedrooms being a few degrees cooler. I have read info on this stating that wood and tile need better reflective surface under the pipe, which makes no sense to me. The house is pretty well built and insulated now, and I will be making improvements as well, and have calculated my projected heat loss at around 22,500btu. At least thats what the one, very complex calculator I used told me. So that puts me at 17.5 btu/sq ft. There won't be many windows and I plan on going as efficient as I can afford with them. From here I've followed directions on a few different sites, and got different results on what I would need. Some even suggest not counting or heating under cabinets, tubs etc. Theres just lots of conflicting info out there, so I'm just looking for some info that might better help me design this myself. It will be a closed system, I was also wondering if there are heaters designed to run this and dhw without a heat exchanger. I assume there is, just haven't seen or realized I've seen them yet. Also any suggestions on what kind of pipe works best. I'm thinking it may depend on loop length as a thicker wall pipe may help spread the heat farther, but it may not matter. I was planning on using some sort of reflective barrier on or around the pipe, but not sure what to use on that either. My mind is kind of burnt out and overloaded on this for the moment, and i'm sure I'm forgetting to add some details. I know I'm asking quite a bit here so thanks for any help

HR floor heating can certainly be accomplished as a DIY project. However, you have to be willing to invest the time and effort to become educated on the fundamental engineering principals and the best practices to ensure having a successful result. Other than getting some actual training, the best way is to obtain a copy of John Siegenthaler’s “Modern Hydronic Heating” and spend a couple weeks digesting it. If you find that digesting this information is beyond your capabilities or interest, then you should really consider hiring someone who is competent.

We have free DIY HR floor heating design software on our website where you can also see our credentials:

Borst Heat Loss Analysis Software

Borst Hydronic Radiant Floor Heating Design Software

Borst Buffer Tank Design Software

Borst Expansion Tank Design Software

Yes, there is lots of conflicting information. There is also no shortage of “pros” who are willing to take your money who are not capable of following the advice in my first paragraph and don’t know the meaning of competent. So be careful.

Thanks for the info, I will definitely check into it. Most of the sites I've been to seem very competent and have very logical explanations for why, but what they say differs. One site I went to they have been in the business over 30 years and had lots of great info, but some of it seemed like it was 30 years old lol. I know without a doubt I can install the system, but I like to do things like a pro (or better) and want my design to be right. Going to check out your info!

Wow, they are proud of that book, I don't think Ill be buying it for one-time use. I will check out your site when I get home this evening

I think she gets a commission.

I have all Siggy has published, but most of it is of little use without some field experience.

Send the plans, we are independent licensed installers with factory training for design installation and maintenance of hydronic radiant floor, wall and ceiling heating systems. We use Wrightsoft Manual 'J' dedicated software and provide CAD drawings, specifications of materials and reliable online sources for quality components we use in the field every day.

If you really want to design your own, not recommended, you could by Siggy's software: http://www.hydronicpros.com/downloads/

Again of marginal use if you don't know where to buy the listed components, what they do or where they go in the system.

You can Google the book and read 98% of it for free. It is also available in most libraries. Full disclosure...we do NOT receive any commission with regard to this book. It is just the best book currently available for HR design and installation best practices. Be aware that some States like Minnesota do NOT have State-wide training or licensing requirements. It is not unusual for people to operate from these States into States that do have State-wide licensing requirements. You can read all about this practice in the software instructions on our website. So again, be careful. BTW, if you enjoy long range shooting for varmints and the like, we have some highly acclaimed free ballistics software on our website too:

Borst External Ballistics Software

Borst Bullet Ballistic Coefficient Calculator Software

More bad advise and false information as usual.

Steal the information from John, he won't mind.

Minnesota has a "State Wide" plumbing code and mechanical code. Has for decades, like all the states in the Union.

More the point I personally hold the more difficult to obtain, strictly enforced and relevant Master of Steam and Hot Water, Master Plumbing and Master Gas Burner/Fitter for Minneapolis and St. Paul.

More important I know what I am talking about and practice in the field with real systems in a real cold climate, every day on old systems and new houses.

The first thing to learn about shooting is controlling the muzzle. Enough said.

State HVAC License Requirements

Oh, often the best place to buy HR components is online. Our affiliate is SupplyHouse.com:

SupplyHouse.com

Often times you will get a discount, free delivery, and not have to pay State sales tax. However, always shop around for the best deals. The worst place to buy HR components is often from “pros” who are fluent in “catalog engineering”.

Sadly this blog has turned in to the Borst software marketing, contractor aproval, supply house, right wing-nut review board.
Where are the Green builders forum internet police when you need them.
So it goes

It does get lonesome with perpetual din. Perhaps it time to leave the thing to the monster and be done with it.

All the good folks are driven off with the perpetual lunacy.

If they need real help with hydronic radiant heating they will have to check the archives...

www.BadgerRadiantDesigns.com

Well nice to see everyone agrees here lol. Sailawayrb, I'm trying your software, mainly because even though you are being bad mouthed, you have a nice professional attitude. One spot I'm not sure what to enter is the floor information. I have wood frame on a block foundation. I plan on encapsulsting the crawlspace and maybe adding some blueboard inside of the block It is about 30" high, I'm not sure what insulation is in there now, but I had planned putting 9 inch batts. Basically I guess it would be a 1, although it will probably be at least 10-20 degrees warmer than outside

With floor type 1, i'm getting 17823 btu/hr. The calculator is much less confusing than the other I used, which didn't include downward heat loss

I did get an electronic version of the book as well. Up to chapter 3 now, it is very informative. It seems my heat loss is quite low. I'm not sure that a tankless is the way to go with these numbers. Although I want a tankless anyway for my domestic. I will however install the unit in an unheated garage and the manifold will be centrally located in the crawlspace, about 20 feet away. I was also thinking a radiator in the garage on the return line, to dissipate the remaining heat, and keep the system from freezing. I think these options will help my situation. I will be doing a room by room calculation, and include the garage, to see if I should use seperate zones. Also was thinking I could use a say 36 gallon pressure tank, that would serve dual purpose, expansion and buffer tank, is that feasible?

Yes, I have been getting bad mouthed by some folks for many years. The fact is, I have always just provided the facts and provided DIYers an option to accomplish HR floor heating design/installation if affordable and good HVAC contractors are not available in their location. Some folks just don’t like that and feel the need to demonize me. However, I have a thick skin and many folks have told me over the years that they greatly appreciate the help that I provide. Such is the dark side of human nature and it often comes out on public forums like this.

Yes, floor type 1 would be the most appropriate. Expansion tanks should be located very close to the inlet side of the circulator pump(s). For a small, low load system, a hot water tank can often get the job done well and at minimum cost. Lots of conflicting opinions on this too, but just know that many folks have successfully done it. Just make sure it is a closed system (i.e., not an open system that also supplies DHW). The proper steps are: 1) a good room-by-room heat loss analysis, 2) a good HR system design, 3) select the best pump(s), 4) select the desired heat source, 5) size and select the other required components (manifolds, expansion tank, etc), and 6) follow best installation practices. This is all very well explained by Siegenthaler and we have been told that the instructions for our DIY software is clear and our software is very usable.

oh well

Unlike you and Badger, I am not marketing or hawking anything. We don’t operate from OR/WA into Minnesota…even though we legally could since there is no State licensing requirements there. We were fully booked up for the 2015 season back in November and we won’t be taking on new clients until next Fall. Providing free advice on this forum and providing free DIY software is NOT hawking. Read any of Badger’s posts for a good example of hawking... And besides, marketing/hawking is NOT even prohibited on this forum.

We are not blessed or affiliated with Siegenthaler in any way. We just highly value his knowledge and experience, and we share it with people who may not be familiar with this resource.

What is tiring is folks who demonize others to achieve their agenda…like the Nazi’s did to the Jewish people and like the Republicans do to Obama. Sorry, but I’ll take competence, integrity and professionalism over ignorance and hatred every day even if it isn’t popular. The reality is that there are bad apples in the HVAC industry. Why they would hang out on a public forum and make that obvious time after time is beyond me. However, both the industry and consumers would be much better off if they did go out of business.

Well I redid my calculation and changed a few figures that I had estimated in my head and now I'm at 24725 btu. Up to chapter 6 in the book now, all very understandable to me. It will be a closed system, but I also want it to supply my dhw through heat exchanger, unless there is another way. I am wondering about the possibility of a 36 gallon pressure tank serving as both expansion tank and buffer tank.

Posted By Blueridgecompany.com on 07 Feb 2015 02:27 PM
Sadly this blog has turned in to the Borst software marketing, contractor aproval, supply house, right wing-nut review board.
Where are the Green builders forum internet police when you need them.
So it goes

Sadly this blog has turned into the pick on someone who is being helpful and supplying links to help the poster. Where as the other comments have been patronizing and no help whatsoever. Sailaway, thank you for your help and useful information and links.

The lurker............Just my observation but having been viewing this board for many years , and well before Borst appeared. Most of the earlier posters are now gone and the whole tenor of the board has changed...Big Time........just my two cents.

If you read the archives you learn that some of the companies that posted here have gone out of business...and from what I have learned, a couple more should too... Many of the older posts are more sales pitches than any useful or helpful information. There was also a strong anti-DIY tenor in the past. I much prefer the DIY friendly and factual information tenor. I find the posts by Borst and Dana to be best and I am very grateful they spend the time to do so.

I have to agree with "icf". The site has certainly turned into your typical DIY...rag, with the notable exception of Dana of course.

Rag on the industry, rag on the contractor, rag on the ignorant fossil-fuel-burning cave men, rag on conservatives/Republicans--real or imagined.

If you don't mind the perpetual condescending tone and constant rancor with attacks, both personal and professional, using misinformation and blatant lies to punish anyone who doesn't agree with the her or the things she's "read".

But when you think about it, if you have someone, always here, who knows everything, about everything, and loves to give it all away, for what it's worth, most especially if it hurts her competitors business, their reputation or at least their feelings; why would go anywhere else?

I guess it's all good.