The only condescending tone I have seen has been when you or Borst contradict each other badger. And while I haven’t kept count, I suspect Borst was right way more times than you. And you have also been way more condescending than Borst in general (like right now) and shown to be scoundrel in more ways than one too (like lying about state license requirements in this post). But even ignoring all that, what I really value about Borst and Dana is the effort and helpfulness they put into their posts. I was personally very appreciative of this one:

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/4/aft/82966/afv/topic/Default.aspx

Have you ever actually helped anyone badger? It seems like all your posts are sales pitches to hire you because you have a farm house with floor heating. Which Borst proved quite convincingly is the opposite of efficient. So I think Borst is right that you are just a hate monger like the Republicans. So it is all good. But it would be even better if you went away for good as you promised...and that’s my two cents…

Book smart and street smart, it is when you combine the 2 that it gets interesting as then the rules bend to real smart.
The understanding from what works and makes sense, what is not governed by what the books say but also by thinking out side the box, solving the problem, creating the solution. These are the skills that Morgan, Rob and others like have that carry the weight of real value and topic.
Green building blog as I had seen in the past was solution orientated, and better serves all if ideas can be presented with out the constant dribble.
Well back to my cave until the uprising,

Stumbled on this post when doing a search for green tipped ballistics. You know, the M855 NATO 5.56 cartridges that have the armor piercing S109 bullets that have painted green tips that will soon be illegible. So not much initial interest in green building and wouldn’t have even bothered registering except that this stupid website forces you to do so or it stops letting you read posts. What is that about? Anyhow, I just wanted to say that the free ballistic software that can be used via the above link provided by Borst is friggin amazing and likely the best I have ever used. Keep in mind that I have served in Iraq and Afghanistan and paid good money for what I use to consider was good ballistics software. This Borst ballistics software includes all the standard stuff like accounting for altitude, temperature, humidity, wind and terrain slope. However, it also accounts for rotating earth (important for shots over 1000 yards), handles all 10 bullet drag standards, handles both Army and ICAO atmosphere standards, allows manual entry of the bullet departure angle in addition to the standard option of zeroing the gun at some specific range, has multiple maximum range criteria (bullet speed, bullet energy and bullet time of flight), outputs elevation and windage as inches, IPHY, MILS or MOA as desired, outputs the bullet Miller stability factor, determines laser bore sight target parameters, and computes the ballistics parameters at any specific desired range. It also uses a fourth order Runge-Kutta algorithm that makes it accurate for long range forecasting and it runs amazing fast. Oh yeah, the ballistic calculator instructions rock too. I mention all this as other gun enthusiasts will likely find this post too. Anyhow, this is great stuff. I don’t care about the rest of this post discussion but sounds like you have a woman bashing moron on your hands that needs to be put in his place.

Ikilldonkies, I find your screen name very offensive but I think you hit the nail on the head about woman bashing. When I looked back in the archives I found many instances of this. Even when she hasn’t even commented on a post, there is always the condescending bashing by Badger like this most recent one:

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/12/aft/83138/afv/topic/Default.aspx

I found many examples of where Borst went way out of their way to help people with their specific requests like these:

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/14/aft/82708/afv/topic/afpg/3/Default.aspx

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/afv/topic/aff/22/aft/82470/afpg/1/Default.aspx

It looks like in the past there was a clique of three stooges who just used this forum to market their services and they did their best to chase off any competition. And guess who two of these three stooges are? They clearly found their match and got put in their place by a woman who is far more capable and far more helpful than them so I can see how a woman basher wouldn’t deal well with this situation. So this looks like a case of a few disgruntled unethical con artists who were deservedly woman slapped and have come back to cause more trouble.

Sailawayrb/Borst - thank you for your excellent and helpful posts and the links you provide. I have Siegenthaler’s book and have used his software and agree with your endorsement. Your tenacity and civility are admirable, and a model for my daughters and son to follow. I strongly agree with icfbound's posts highlighting Badger's obsessed and offensive posts that bash you. And Dan of BlueRidgeCompany adds to the chorus and will not get a penny of my money unless he makes a full apology for his offensive posts - although I have some hope that he'll do the right thing.

icfbound - thank you for defending Sailawayrb, backed with irrefuttable facts. The offensive bashing you have highlighted caused me moderate my time here, but your leadership has motivated me to add my voice for a return to civility, and an enhanced respect for DIYers. However, your name calling (e.g. scoundrel, stooges), though very moderate in contrast to Badger, adds a little bit more fuel to a fire that will hopefully burn out.

tbrooks - thank you for also highlighting the uncivil behavior.

I'm sorry I didn't post sooner.

More moral high ground, and typical name calling.

Since this thread is jacked you may want to review...

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/12/aft/82101/afv/topic/afpgj/4/Default.aspx#122132

I do take umbrage with the continual name calling. You will note that I, nearly invariably, describe the offensive--and the merely annoying--behavior consistently displayed by sailor. I couldn't care less about gender but "she" used it in defense, and leaning on her husband's engineering does get old and makes this aspect fair game.

The sailor has insulted, personally and professionally, nearly every regular on this forum that dared to disagree with "it".

Here's another of my favorites for the "name calling" Hall-of-Fame...

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/12/aft/82172/afv/topic/afpgj/4/Default.aspx#120414

And don't forget this one; where a "lady" has to stand up for herself...If you invoke the name you must live with it.

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/12/aft/82069/afv/topic/afpgj/7/Default.aspx#119565

But my all-time favorite, demonstrating what was some of the best this site had to offer before the "Borst" took over...

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/12/aft/81003/afv/topic/afpgj/6/Default.aspx#105428

Stop drinking the cool-aide, people!

Those links just further illustrate what a jerk you are and further validate everything I wrote previously. All you do is instigate bad will, “badger” good and helpful contractors, and even “badger” your customers.

http://moderninmn.blogspot.com/2008/12/our-weil-mclain-boiler-failure.html

http://www.buildzoom.com/contractor/badger-professional-services-llc

Pidg, do you still think I was too harsh with Mr. Badger?

That's it? That's all you've got? Not one quote of the alleged name calling?

After all that "research" and still another insult and more name calling?

Pathetic as your hero.

Petty, off subject and wasting valuable time. It is unwise to jump into a fight when it has been going on for awhile.

Here's another one while we're wasting the OP's time, you will have to get really creative to pin this pathology on the Badger...

No one who disagrees with the Sailor is spared it's rath...even if they clearly know their subject and "irrefutably" correct "it".

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/21/aft/83030/afv/topic/afpg/2/Default.aspx

So that link clearly shows Sailawayrb knows more about engines than the person that challenged her. Anyone who knows anything about engines knows that increased RPM results in both increased engine wear and increased HP. Even so as always, you of course didn’t pass up the chance to attack her yourself. So this is just another example of cavemen attacking intelligent and helpful woman on this forum. So you have again proven that in addition to being an unethical crook, you are a moron when it comes to engines too. I also applaud Sailawayrb’s patience and tenacity in dealing with you stooges for so long and you will never see my money either.

I am surprised that you haven’t crawled into your “badger” hole by now given that your customers are blogging the same things about how you operate and how you treated them. I guess some people are just too dumb and arrogant to listen and change their ways. But please keep posting because you are right that we can do much better…by posting a link to this thread on every HVAC website that we can.

Pidg, can you explain your relationship to sailawayrb?

I will ask you as I have "it". Are you old enough to be on this forum?

Thank you Jon,

It had crossed my mind, but I lack your patience and subtle analytical skills.

I do apologize for engaging with hostility the various entities represented here, in their various guises. I will no longer. And hope someone closer to them recognizes, with appropriate concern, what has transpired.

Mr. Borst perhaps?

Wow, I have been away from this forum for almost two months and Badger is still bad mouthing me. Gee, I feel special and almost honored LOL!

No, to the best of my knowledge, Borst does NOT have any affiliation with Pidg. However, I can’t be 100% certain because Pidg could have been one of our past customers and I have no way of determining this for certain just by his forum user name.

Sorry, but Mr. Borst is way too busy to spend any time here. In fact, Mr. Borst often questions my need to spend any time here. However, I always do as I believe and as I choose. And I am not beholden to anyone...but I do love Mr. Borst dearly. Thanks for asking...

My sincere thanks to everyone for defending my honor, but please try to avoid all the name calling and please try to just focus on the facts. Yes, I know from personal firsthand experience that this can be very challenging with Badger, but we should all do our best not to sink to his level. Let’s give him the opportunity to honor his promise.

To save from repeating myself, the reason for my absence is explained here:

Evaporative Cooling System Query

I agree with Badger.....sailawayrb you are a very smart person but can never admit when she is wrong.....you talk in circles to try to make yourself look right all the time.....there are many ways to do things and not all of them maybe perfect....Badger brings those different options to the forum....for sailaway it is her idea and nothing else.

Just my view of reading the forum for many years.

Badger was very patient with Sailaways rudeness for many years, but now I think he has had enough....

Newboston you are the person that challenged sailawayrb on the engine RPM and were proven wrong by her. The problem I see is that sailawayrb is nearly always right and Badger and his fellow stooges are nearly always wrong. I can see how they might not like that and even perceive it as arrogance. It does not help that she is a woman. But being smart and right is NOT being rude and arrogant. Being smart and right is more about being competent and being confident to share it on a forum like this. This forum should not tolerate ignorance and marketing ploys over factual helpful useful green building guidance...even if there are stooges who prefer this. Them are the facts. Again I applaud sailawayrb for taking on some of the BS merchants that frequent this forum. Since these stooges contribute nothing green to this forum I think they would all be happier hanging out and would contribute more on the other HVAC site that is openly anti DIY and even has a closed section for contractors to discuss how to get the most money out of their dumb customers. That is clearly Badgers agenda as blogged by his ex customers.

Morgan is right,

Morgan Audetat is NOT right. Morgan Audetat is unethical and is a terrible person as his ex-customers have illustrated. Morgan Audetat always goes into a rage and behaves like he did in this thread whenever he is proved wrong which is very often. Amazingly it was a woman who had enough balls to put him in his place here. Dan from Blueridgecompany is a associate of Morgan Audetat and BadgerBoiler. Them are the facts.



June 27, 2013
We hired Mr. Audetat to resolve two issues for the architect on a renovation project: (1) Specify a boiler and hot water heater (separate or combined) to fit in a small utility room; (2) Determine the location and capacity of split A/C units, to finalize compressor mounting locations, electrical loads and cabling. Neither of these questions were ever answered. Quoting Mr. Audetat from his penultimate email: "Domestic hot water can be separate. The boiler should not exceed 25% of the given load, if modulating. Your Architect should be able to size available radiation from the loads. You need to know what the heat source will be in order to know the design water temperature and size of each radiator." Well, that's helpful .... NOT! Deciding "what the heat source will be" was why we hired Mr. Audetat. The second question -- the quantity and capacities of split A/C units -- was never addressed at all. Quoting Mr. Audetat from his final email: "I have, and can again, specify a boiler or a combi water heater, but they are not the same design. If I bill you for the extra time I spent trying to source product, you will owe me an extra thousand." Let's see ... we can pay another thousand to get the answers that weren't provided for the first thousand? Eh ... no. I think we've been "badgered" enough, thanks.



MONDAY, DECEMBER 15, 2008
Our Weil-McLain Boiler Failure, Attracting Flies
The good news is the heat is back! To be sure, it'll be a while before I take hot water, taking a shower and a warm house for granted. Bad boilers aside, we've also been reminded of how fabulous having radiant heat really is, and of how we just can't imagine ever living in a house without it. Kudos and at least a B+ to the contractor for coming out on a Saturday to do the repair after waiting all week for the part.

The ugly facts about Weil-McLain's service on our "issue" and my previous post seems to have attracted the flies. If you've Googled "Weil-McLain failure" or "Weil-McLain review" and read what you dig up, perhaps you've noticed that any time a negative review appears, they're always followed by a "I'm xyz contractor, I have xyz experience, these boilers are great, the service is great, it's the contractors fault" and my personal favorite: "xyz boiler only fails because of improper installation." Taken at face value, it's the (now) expected buck-passing blame game and the status quo attempt to maintain all things plumbing and HVAC as some kind of dark, forbidding art. But look closely. In the case of these contrary, glowing reviews on behalf of Weil-McLain, THEY'RE ALL WRITTEN BY THE SAME PERSON!
Somehow, that just sits a little wrong with me, but of course I'll leave you to form your own opinion on that.

Anyway, here's Modern in MN's own personal version of the oft-repeated diatribe from said person, Morgan Audetat of Badger Boiler Service:
"It's all about the support network. I am a certified contractor for several high efficiency boilers including Weil-McLain's Ultra and HTP's Munchkin. I have received excellent service from their products, their reps and their factory support.

"It's all about the contractor. He is responsible for bringing in the required resources to fix your problem."

"I recently received a next day HX from WM and last year replaced a boiler for them 'same day'."

"Both boilers suffered from improper installation."

"Finally I wonder who designed and installed your system and why they don't seem to be in the picture now? And was the unit serviced annually-per the installation/users manual?"
Hi Morgan. Gosh, you found us fast! Either you and "Badger Boiler Service" are located in a cooling-only state or business is slow, because you seem to have a lot of time on your hands to spend scouring the internet for negative content about the products I presume you make money from. From what I can tell, my post doesn't even show up on a Google search yet and I've only posted reviews on small and unimportant websites so far...

But to respond to your comments, first, you said:

"It's all about the support network."

I couldn't agree with this more. Unfortunately, the biggest player in this support network. i.e. Weil-McLain, didn't or doesn't feel the need to participate in their game, as illustrated by the fact that THEY DID NOT HAVE PARTS AVAILABLE FOR THEIR PRODUCT AT THEIR FACILITY OR ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE COUNTRY....during heating season....for a product they're still selling.

Next, you said:

"It's all about the contractor. He is responsible for bringing in the required resources to fix your problem."

So you've already changed your mind on who it's all about and now we're on to passing the buck, huh? Your industry seems to excel at buck passing, or more specifically, buck avoiding, to the point that it makes me wonder if it's actually a course in HVAC tech school. You sound just like Mike Peck, the WM rep who couldn't be bothered to call us back for a day and a half, did so only after numerous phone calls and an exchange of unpleasant words with his assistant, and then couldn't tell me enough times that "it wasn't WM's fault, there was nothing he could do, I needed to talk to the contractor about this", and that he "has no control over what the contractor does or how long they take". Oh, and that I didn't need to "yell at" him.
Ohkeey Dokeey Mikey. Sorry about that getting cranky part, but not having heat or hot water for a week in the middle of winter will do that to a girl, and you sort of tried to slime the wrong person with your complete bullshit faux helpfulness. Here's a hint: next time, don't try to sell something the customer did that should have been your job as something you did for her. It makes us mad and makes you look like a sleazy, lazy, incompetent ass.
I'm just sayin.
So yea, if the part the contractor needed to fix our boiler EXISTED WHEN WE NEEDED IT, I'd agree, but in this case, the contractor was UNABLE TO BRING IN THE REQUIRED PART in a timely manner, BECAUSE WEIL-MCLAIN DIDN'T SEE FIT TO HAVE THOSE PARTS AVAILABLE. Furthermore, even after this fact was brought to the attention of Weil-McLain, they didn't see fit to find a suitable work around, i.e. replacing the boiler entirely or pulling the part from one of the two Ultra boilers on hand in the state, a solution which would have solved the problem in one day (yep, my idea...you know, the one Mike Peck then tried to pitch to me as his great help after he finally got around to returning our calls?). Instead, they chose to ignore and/or deny the fact that their parts inavailabilty was leaving us with out heat or hot water for a week in the middle of winter. They could have cared less. What wasn't in short supply, however, was the endless stream of slow or returned not at all phone calls and "it's not our fault, we're the greatest, you have to deal with the contractor" from Weil-McLain.

You said:
"I recently received a next day HX from WM and last year replaced a boiler for them 'same day'."
and
"Both boilers suffered from improper installation."

Which I think begs the question: What is the heat exchanger failure rate on WM Ultra boilers?

Anyway, good to know that whatever relationship you have with WM gets you the parts fast! No wonder you want to spend time searching out and refuting every negative review. Looks like you've got pretty extensive industry ties. Hopefully those relationships serve you as well as you serve them.
So If you're a contractor and I had called you for this repair (you should really consider taking out an ad in the yellow pages, btw) and you couldn't get the part for six days who would you be blaming? Just curious.
Maybe you should share your magical wholesale source with the rest of your industry, because Ferguson and their 'accountable to no one' model could really use some competition. I place at least a little of blame for not having a part with them, but as I said, they're accountable to no one so why should they bother?

And as far as improper installation goes, yea, I've heard that one before....from you, in your repetitive posts on review websites. Maybe it would be useful if you could tell us how many Weil-McLain Ultra boilers you've had to repair or replace that were installed according to spec. I'd also be curious to know the stats on how many failures there's been on systems that included domestic hot water heating via an indirect water heater? Or maybe that's revealing too much. Or maybe WM's install spec is neglectful or incompatible with their product design and the price I get to pay for having a properly installed system is a cracked heat exchanger every few years.

What was improper was choosing to have a Weil-McLain product in my home at all because in the end a product is only as good as it's service and above all, after four solid days of numerous, unproductive phone calls to them, what is overwhelmingly clear to us is that Weil-McLain can't be bothered with customer service and has absolutely zero interest in after-sales support. They're like OZ, spending all their time and resources cultivating an image that is, based on my experience, a complete and utter farce and then deluding themselves into believing their lie, all at the expense of their product and their customer.

That was an odd post ICF,
I did not realize I was an associate of Morgan other than respecting his, Dana's, NT Robs and several other opinions on this blog,
Would that be associate by blog?
Further why the rag on Weil Mclane boilers, and making this boiler line Morgan's fault/issue.
Last can I blame Morgan for some of my issues? I have several, and now perhaps he is my esteemed associate in some bloggy form?
Is there a Hydra in the blog sphere?
Dan

Thank you Badger for the apology - you're a member of a tiny group that publicly apologized for a misdeed, and that's a hard bridge to cross - as you well know, and it demonstrates character.

I'm an engineer, where logic and efficiency are almost equivalent to religion, but my posts here on psych are far from my knowledge base. But I do have some shameful experience - when my kids grew from sweeties to challenging teenagers, I started growing into rage-aholic, which was making them and myself very unhappy. We worked it out after I came to the realization of what I was doing - we are all much happier now, but I had to apologize for my behavior which was beginning to spiral, and suck us all into behaviors that were self-defeating. Redemption begins with an honest apology, at least in my experience.

I grew up in NYC and a blue collar suburb close-by. "Fuck you" was water off a duck's back there, but moving to the Midwest and in the company of professionals, it was unacceptable. The many technicians I worked with also reserved it for when they were fairly pissed, at least for most. In this new culture I was far from a model of diplomacy, and still have a long way to go.

Working in these circles, some of the more abstract engineers were hopeless in the lab, and the technicians rightfully chaffed under their authority. And the more hands-on engineers would chaff with the technicians having less science and math background, thus doing things that were needlessly less efficient and then defending their egos with "we've been doing it this way for 10 years and who the hell are you..." Seems the same dynamics between engineers and trades people exist here.

Even the most honest will lie to protect their ego, when faced with "Did you do that?!" in a meeting with several layers of management and peers, although they'll usually correct their answer subsequently. Point being, humans will viciously defend their egos, so going there often leads to unanticipated results that reduces the happiness of everyone involved.

Tolerance of other's cultures and weaknesses, and compassion toward those with obvious flaws makes most of us happier, and we'll all learn a lot more about radiant heating. Some of us have a blind spot for diplomacy, and some of us take every undiplomatic comment as an attack on their ego, character or intelligence. This forum is useless if technical debates are stifled, but the strong differences don't have to spiral down into attacking egos, character, or intelligence. And, most of us will get angry, when called names - there is nothing gained by it.

Finally, I have zero association with Sailawayrb - never exchanged emails, calls, texts, or any other type of communication, except my two posts here. I have looked at the Borst website, but I've never purchased, nor sold anything to Borst or any of the family or employees. I've purchased from Supplywarehouse, but that was before I knew of the Borst endorsement. And, IMHO, all us have room for improving our human relations skills, including Sailawayrb and icfbound.

After my apology to my kids, there was a ramp to increasing the quality of my reactions, and so it will be for Badger. We all need tolerance and words of encouragement are uplifting for all. Road signs here say "Don't Engage" and that's good advice for all of us.

Sorry for the long post with nothing useful about radiant heating.

icfbound...I am guessing that you don't understand engines very well yourself. The issues I had was that she was telling people wrong information.

The first one was that engine wear is a function of RPM as stated in this post:

Posted By sailawayrb on 21 Jan 2015 02:19 PM


1/12 gallon per KWH way more than meets our needs. Engine wear and associated maintenance is proportional to the square of the engine RPM. So a 3,600 RPM engine wears 36 times faster than a 600 RPM engine... Listers also sound much better too...

Wear is a function of engine design and many other factors, it can't be calculated by just RPM x 36. There thousands of factors that affect engine wear.

I can list a few: oil change interval, oil pressure, air filter cleanliness, engine load, engine balance, bearing clearance, fuel cleanliness, how good seals keep dirt out, (these are the easy basic ones) harder ones are like: pistons (ring to cylinder wall pressure, piston to cylinder wall clearance, ring end gap), crank/cam bearings (journal smoothness, taper in the machining it, roundness, oil flow, feed hole location, filet radius), cylinder heads (gasket quality, the flatness of the deck, bolt clamp load), cylinder wall finish(and no smoother is not always better, cylinder wall crosshatch), valve guides(oil flow, roundness, trueness, and clearance), rocker arms(pivot quality, oil flow, angle of valves tips and to pushrods tips).

I could go on and on for hours. Most people think they know engines put till you spend 20 years designing, testing, and trouble shooting them you realize you really don’t know anything about them. I personally feel that there are many people that are a lot smarter than me.

Her next comment was that engine power increases with RPM. This is also not true. If you read through the post again you will see everything explained as to why this is not true. Her reply was that what I said makes no sense. It makes no sense because she doesn’t “really” understand engines and can’t admit that she was telling people the wrong information. I guessing google couldn’t provide the right answer. I called her out like she does rudely to so many others and she still can’t admit she is wrong.

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/21/aft/83030/afv/topic/afpg/1/Default.aspx

If you want to argue more points, I would be more than willing to.