When I priced an Altherma with solar in MY AO the installed cost was actually slightly higher than an installed horizontal system and the average COP lower. I don't think the $14,919 mentioned above has the complete solar package with it.

so drop the solar. though, in most cases, with the credit the solar will pay for itself. you could certainly do an altherma with solar for that here in maine, after solar credit is taken. and that would provide all your DHW at solar or heat pump efficiencies, something geo doesn't typically do very well.

I've never seen any geo system with paid dirt or well work required come in at $15k or less, even after credit. if that happens, great, but I haven't seen it and I'd love to find contractors that could provide that service to people at that price point. Pricing around here is typically at least 50% higher and often double for the complete system not including distribution duct/piping. And maine, while we are rocky, is not a hot installation market, we are typically cheaper on labor than most more metropolitan areas.

theoretical COPs for geo will be higher... average ground temp is higher than air temp in a heating climate However, you have to be really, really careful. Geo uses large loop field pumps and many reported COPs have historically not taken this into account. And it's important. especially on the cheaper pump and dump open systems that report even higher COPs but use much, much more pump energy. I would usually assume something like a 3.5 COP average for geo vs 2.5 Air source as a rough rule of thumb but everything varies by site, technology in play, equipment in use, etc. of course the dirty secret is that larger COPs have a diminishing return... even being more generous to geo here would result in something like a 3-5 year payback vs straight electric at 0.10/kwh (not that anyone would be foolish enough to do that, so even that is being really generous to geo) per $1000 in installed cost differential.

All of that is why we chose air source for our shop and why we dove in with it. If you do math I don't think it's *generally* possible to come up with different results. but perhaps some particular sites or some particular installers are finding ways to beat that for ground source.

Rob,
The 15K mentioned was for the equipment not an installed price. That makes it literally more expensive than a geo package (pre installed price)....and it still does not have the solar kit. I am a geo advocate of course, but I sell what ever fits my customer best. This is why I had occasion to price Altherma recently and it was no contest. The geo was by far the better buy (at about 25K installed).
There is of course air source that is very economical, but Altherma ain't it.

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One of the local contractors I hope to be working with (HVAC; plumber, sheetmetal, solar specialist) who is certified by Daikin, has alerted me to a company called Thermomatrix. they make similar products to Daikin, not as expensive and possibly not as high of quality. But it looks like good stuff (on paper).

They do offer monoblocs, as well as split units, and companion DWH and hot water air handlers.

They also seemed to have embraced PC, MAC, iOS and Droid platforms (I think)

I think the Thermomatrix heat pump is only 2 stage (isn't the Altherma multi stage?)

And, just guessing, the outside units are not as impervious to the elements as the Altherma units which are brutes in salt water environments.

I should have pricing next week to compare the differences. Unfortunately, he has no experience with Thermomatrix so he can't offer any empirical stats on reliability. I'll be happy to share the prices, if anyone is interested?

Since my property is coastal, I am concerned about atomized salt water corroding anything on my house. However, my property sits up on a bluff 150-170' above sea level.

I would think that atomized salt water in the air would be much more of a problem if a house were built down on the beach (near sea level) as opposed to 150'+ above and protected by a bluff. Or is this wishful thinking? Isn't salt water atomized air heavier than regular air too? It would require strong winds (which can happen) to drive it up and onto my property?

Somewhere I saw data on salt damage vs distance from the water. Elevation definitely helps avoid salt mist. Would be interesting to know if any type of washing would help people at lower levels (say a brief, automated nightly spray to remove salt).

It's not clear to me what the difference is between the outdoor compressor portion of an air-air mini-split and the outdoor compressor portion of a split air to water heat pump. For example, could a Fujitsu Waterstage indoor unit (the refrigerant to water heat exchanger) be used with any of the Fujitsu outdoor compressors that are readily available in the US?

I'm 130' above sea level and about 300 yards from the salt and we're not detecting any appreciable increase in "atomized" Na or Cl in the air.

Altherma installations around here are less than $15k installed in most cases. usually, including domestic water tanks. but maine is definitely a cheaper labor market than many others.

apples to apples, an altherma heat pump should cost as much as a geo heat pump to install or very slightly more.. but the geo heat pump has to add dirt work. it's all in that cost adder from what I've seen. Or in local "market distortions".

Unless it is a pump and dump or "once through as we like to say :-).

Posted By NRT.Rob on 20 May 2013 11:15 AM
Altherma installations around here are less than $15k installed in most cases. usually, including domestic water tanks. but maine is definitely a cheaper labor market than many others.

apples to apples, an altherma heat pump should cost as much as a geo heat pump to install or very slightly more.. but the geo heat pump has to add dirt work. it's all in that cost adder from what I've seen. Or in local "market distortions".

does that include a solar kit?

no, but once again, adding the solar kit is basically free, because the solar tax credit basically covers the cost of the kit and the solar components.

Posted By NRT.Rob on 23 May 2013 09:39 AM
no, but once again, adding the solar kit is basically free, because the solar tax credit basically covers the cost of the kit and the solar components.

Okay but then a fair comparison in my AO of the examples offered: 17.5K post tax credit geo with installation and sales tax and 15K pretax for the preinstalled pretax altherma pieces. Air source might be cheaper than geo, Altherma isn't. At least not in my AO.

you're at 17.5k installed, including dirt work? if so then in your area the options seem to be comparable. the altherma gave you DHW and solar assist for DHW as well, which still costs extra in the geo comparison. but in this specific comparison, they aren't miles apart then.

if you cut out the DHW for apples to apples comparison, the altherma is still several thousand less.

Posted By NRT.Rob on 25 May 2013 10:01 AM
you're at 17.5k installed, including dirt work?

Yes, post tax credit