Hi, I live in CT and am currently getting quotes for a geothermal closed loop system to replace my oil system.  The contractor that I think will come in with the best price and who I liked the most is recommending a Hydrodelta Mega-tek unit.  I called a suppler today to try and get pricing and other information on the units.  They wanted my "license" faxed to them to prove I am a contractor.   I have encountered this before, I understand why they do it (to protect contractor pricing so they can overcharge you without you knowing) but find it to be a dishonest and just overall crappy practice.   My father in law is a licensed contractor and therefor by tomorrow so wont I be.  Even if he wasn't I do enough DIY work to make it worth me paying the 100 bucks a year to "get a license #".  Nonetheless, I have read a number of posts stating problems with the units and a couple with positive feedback on them.  I'm trying to figure out if they really are as bad as some say or if it's just a few people that have had problems and happen to be on these forums because they have problems.  I'm interested in any experiance anyone has had.  Also while i should have the pricing info i need in a day or two I would also be interested if anyone knows about what these units run.  I'm going to need two 3 ton units.  thanks.

Since you have to prove who you are, you should ask this company for their failure rate on the unit you are interested in.  Then compare to other brands.

While there are some brands to steer clear of, most geothermal heat pumps work well when installed correctly.

The biggest issues are: start with an accurate load calculation; size the system accurately/properly to the accurate load; have the unit installed correctly by a certified installer.

On that last point, it doesn't matter if the installer is on his first unit. It only matters that he installs it correctly. Just as you stated, you've done a lot of DIY projects. If you did them wrong, they didn't turn out as they should. However, if you did them right--even though it was your first time--they turn out just fine.

For the manufacturer to require a contractor's license before giving out the contractor pricing is a perfectly ethical business practice. Where do you work? Do you tell your clients what your costs are? And what your profit is? Of course not. And they are willing to pay the price you charge them. Do you go to Burger King and wonder what it costs them for that hamburger? Do you call their supplier because you think they are ripping you off? No. It's absurd. We all deserve to make a profit for the work we do, don't we? If not, why go to work? Maybe it'd be time to find a different job.

As for experiences, here are a few quotes from satisfied customers in Utah:

"The EarthLinked system is really good. I love the low cost of operation. I recommend it to anyone who asks about it. The initial price is higher, but the overall cost is way lower than anything else." --Jeanie Luck, Lapoint, Ut

"I love the fact that it's very energy efficient, even though it's a higher price to install. The physical comfort is much more comfortable than any gas or propane system...the heat is much more even--summer or winter. The system never seems to labor to maintain the comfort of the house, either. There's no shortage of hot water, either. I love it!"--Pam Neilson, Cedar View, Ut

"Our ground source heat pump is great. I couldn't believe my heating bill was so low! The installation price may be higher, but the operating cost is way lower. I would recommend it to anyonw who wants to save money, conserve energy, and be really comfortable."--Kevin Migliori, Roosevelt, Ut

"We decided to do ground source heat when we were building our home, because of the rising costs in propane and natural gas. We had talked to one of our friends who had spent over $1,500 in propane just during the winter [in 2004]. When we learned about the ground source heat, we decided even though the premium up front was more than a regular propane system, it would be better in the long run. We have now been in our home a year, and we love the EarthLinked system. It keeps our home at a more constant and comfortable temperature, whether cooling or heating. We were concerned about the rise in our electricity bill, but we were pleasantly surprised that it was not high. All in all, we are very happy with the geothermal system and know that we will be happy for a long time with our temperature and money saving decision."--Russ Thomas, Roosevelt, Ut.

I considered Megatek at some length before ultimately settling on WF Envision. Megatek has the unique ability (patented, they claim) to run the unit just to heat domestic water. That's a cut above conventional systems (WF, CM) that heat water only via desuperheating refrigerant only when space cooling or heating is required

At the time of my research Megatek was not ARI crtified, a major minus for me. That and Hydroheat's distance from me and scanty dealer network were deciding factors for me to go with WaterFurnace

Let me start by thanking everyone for their reply.  I am new to this and appreciate the info.  Your replies are in line with what I was hoping to here.  Engineer, your right the hot water benefit is a big plus.  I'm going to continue doing my homework and go from there.

Tuffluckdrilling, yes good point on the heat calcs.  All 3 contractors said they would be figuring out the heat calcs for the house which I viewed as a good sign.  The pastes from other posts were helpful but I'm already sold on going to geo I'm just trying to find my way and avoid getting taken which I do by doing my homework. 

I see by your tag at the bottom of your note that you do this work for a living.  I respect and understand your opinion on the hiding of pricing but do not share your point of view.  You might be right but I'm not buying a 2 dollar hamburger.  If I'm handing over 30K to someone I'm going to know the details whether they want me to or not.  I am a IT Project Manager a for a major corporation and costs of materials usually are shared.  No one hides the cost of a server or additional hardware.  I think everyone understands people need to make a profit but why can't you still have competitive bids with full disclosure.  Your all using the same or similar materials.  When I go to the bar I actually do know that bottle of beer is only costing them .50 - .75 cents but I still pay them 4 dollars for it.  As I mentioned i do a LOT of DIY and have recently started doing work for friends of friends, etc.  I quote them exactly what the materials are and what I am charging over that.  I want them to know.  If they arn't completely comfortable i don't want to do the work.  Granted I don't do it for a living....  My father in law actually operates the same way he doesn't get every job he bids on,  he's not the cheapest but he doesn't need to advertise at all and has more work then he can handle.  When I have one guy come in and say it's going to cost between 20-30k, another come in and say 30-60K and another say 30-40K (all no well work) that really gets me thinking "ok what are the real costs involved here".  Two heat pumps, plumbing, controls.  I'm sure I'm missing some stuff but 60K...  Ok get out of my house. 

It's OK the electric utility in the state who gets paperwork on these since they are offering a rebate stated the lower priced guy does a lot of this work and as far as he knows don't have any complaints.  The guy is old school, been doing geo for 20+ yrs.  I'll take my chances with him over the guy trying to figure out what I'm willing to pay.

BTW, I saw a post from you quoting some of your prices and it seems you do a lot on the board to honestly help people.  I respect that.  U should come out here and do work :).  they charge 9-13 dollars a foot here just to drill (6" bore).  I'm being told a can expect to pay about 6 dollars a ft for the pipe and grout work.  GBT will supply everything needed (pipe, antifreeze, clips and enhanced grout for 1.90 a ft). Guys in the biz probably pay even less but that puts the profit over materials at over 2k.  Do I think that is a lot for two guys days work... Yes but I will probably pay it to avoid doing a messy job I have never done before (plus don't know where to rent a grout machine".  Anyway thanks again for all the info.

There is another company called HydroTemp that provides similar HW system as HydroHeat (a product of Hydro Delta Corp). Don't become confused by the similarity of names. HydroTemp is out of Pocohontas, Arkansas. Following explains their system:

"-Priority Hot Water: The priority hot water heating option is a patented system that works like a desuperheater except that, once the heating or cooling load from the house is satisfied, the units microprocessor can turn on the system just to heat hot water if needed. The temperature of the hotwater tank is monitored by a digital aqua stat installed when the system is installed. When the room thermostat later calls for more heating or cooling, the unit will then switch back and heat or cool the home. The breaker to the hot water tank is turned off as this system will provide 100% of a household's hot water needs.
Some of the advanced features of the Priority system include the ability to extract heat from the home and put the heat into the hot water tank by turning off the ground loop or well water when cooling for the house is needed at the same time the aqua stat calls for hot water heating."

Someone explained to me that some eqpt is not ARI certified because the company customizes systems for each customer's needs. AHRI (Air Conditioning, Heating and Refrigeration Institute) provides ARI certification of products that are mass produced in the same configuration. So if you want an off the shelf system that gets close to meeting your rqmts or in some cases actually meets your rqmts, look for ARI certification. IF you want to ensure the system does meet your rqmts consider a company that can tailor a system for you. My question would be, how else can you verify a non-ARI certified system or company is quality?

Also as Engineer stated, for companies that don't have dealer networks how do you deal with warranty and service work, or installation for that matter?

Probably more questions than answers.

Thanks Farmboy.  I will look into Hydrotemp also.

jw6793,

About a year ago, I began looking into geothermal heat pump systems - both DX and conventional. I considered bids from Hydrodelta and Climatemaster installers. I finally went with the Climatemaster system even though the Hydrodelta installer was a huge contractor in my area and the sales person was very pushy.

I am very thankful I did. Since my isntallation I have read a number of complaints from home owners who have had a number of problems with the Hydro Delta product. Few have posted their problems on this board while others have posted their problems on a couple of very popular HVAC boards. Some even took the time to answer my old queries regarding their problems. Most problems were related with the dual reciprocating compressor and also with very poor responsiveness of the company to solve the problem of the unhappy owners.

I found only happy owners of Climatemaster products and not a single happy owner of a Hydro Delta product - all I found were threads from unhappy owners of Hydro Delta product.


Please do your research before you go with Hydro Delta.

Best regards and good luck.

VK

In my business I've found that when customers start digging that deep as to know every cost of the parts going into my project, it's usaully used in the end to bust my balls somehow. No offense JW but itemizing the components is one thing to do comparisons, throwing the costs of each item is not needed because in the end you're going to pay what the contractor quotes no matter which one you pick. If you want to DIY, that's a whole different scenrio and at that point I don't think you should be shut out, you are your own contractor. Just don't think you're going to go somewhere inbetween.

In this internet age it is tough to get used to the fact that consumers know a whole lot more about pricing than they ever used to. We who provide professional services had best get used to that. Rather than burying margin in parts markups, come clean and charge for the value added by expert services. Sure one can buy pieces parts over the internet for bottom dollar, but who ya gonna call to design it, size it, spec it, install it, maintain it, and repair it?

If you DIY with cheap internet stuff and farm out services at an hourly rate, it is you with ultimate mental ownership of the final product as an integrated system. That's how I operate, but it takes a great deal of diligent research and the occasional whack for letting the expensive factory-installed smoke out of something mis-designed, spec'd, installed, mainted or repaired. If you are not willing to make the effort and chalk the occasional bit of smoke up to experience, you'd best sign a contract for a turnkey system and not sweat the individual item costs

I had a Mega-Tek system installed in my retirement home in 1998.  I am sold on the the technology.  I was not pleased with the loop installation sub-contractor and the way he plumbed the system.  Other than that, we are generally pleased with the system.  My complaint is that the Hydro Delta contractor went out of business and I had to find a more local geothermal HVAC contractor for periodic maintanance.  I had to replace the compressors within the first 5 years fortunately still under warranty.  Over 2 years ago I disabled the hot water feature to keep the system from stopping any heating/cooling to check for hot water.  It wasn't a problem in the winter, but annoying in the summer.  At present, I am looking for a new thermostat.  The current one no longer energizes the 2nd stage compressor.  I tried a Honeywell model that was supposed to work, but it didn't.  I have contacted Hydro Delta for another t-stat, but no reply yet via e-mail.  Next step is a phone call.  The HVAC contractor I use now is a Florida Heat Pump dealer.  They do have geothermal systems.  Bottom line for me - Mega-tek has too many bells and whistles and too few mfg reps across the country.  My hot water tank works fine in the old fashioned way.

Are you certain the problem lies in the stat?

Tough to find good news about Hydro Delta around here

According the the service tech from my HVAC contractor, there are zero volts from the t-stat to Y2.  He wired Y1 and Y2 together in the unit.  I tried a Honeywell TH8321U1006 (after removing the Y1/Y2 jump).  Took awhile to go through the set up, but the "Test" seemed ok.  But the 1st compressor came on for about a minute and shut off.  The fan kept running.  I shut off the breakers then turned them on after 5 min and the same thing happened.  I took off the Honeywell and put the Hydraheat DSL-605 back with Y1 and Y2 again wired together in the unit. 

The Hydro units are not super common in our area but we do see them. I've heard complaints about the heat exchangers and compressor. That said, no one calls me when it works perfectly, only when it's broken.
I'm also an Amana dealer we had a gas appliance in the 80's/90's that made hot water and heat at 95% eff. The conclusion at the end of the day for me was that it is folly to take the most expensive and important appliance in the home (furnace) to do the job of a $200 water heater. These furnaces had many problems and short lifespans due to greater operating hours.
As far as the price issue, we've been round the block here on that one; nearly to distraction. I don't care to be hyper scrutinized and therefore am not hired by folks who insist on it (my blood pressure is lower for it). The consumer lack of understanding of overhead and real cost is amazing to me. Your highest price guy could easily have the lowest margin depending on his job cost. Regarding purchasing for major corporations, you may of course demand certain things when you are a company's biggest customer and I did mention previously that we often have to provide profit/loss statements for large jobs (>$100K), yours is a small job. Either way, it's probably a tad odd to accuse folks of "dishonest and crappy practices" at the same time you are asking for their help.
Engineer's project was DIY and if you've read recent threads, he has had to do more than a little after install work to get the performance he desires.
If you hire the job out to a company, they have to warranty performance and would be doing the things he's doing now at no charge. Engineer is unique in his desire to start a contracting operation. I suspect most would say their DIY project was unsaticfactory if they continued to have to work on it in spite of a $24,000 price tag. Engineer is getting an education he'll need as a contractor. You may not wish to get that much system knowledge.
Good Luck,
Joe

I may have come across as too hard on my installers. Their duct workmanship was excellent, I like the Honeywell thermostats they supplied. They placed them properly in each zone. (We discussed each spot and easily reached agreement) They sized duct correctly for quiet, low fan power operation. Returns work fairly well. Grills were supplied and placed well to wash outside walls.

This was truly their first geo, WF, multizone, Intellizone system and I had researched the bejeezus out of it before selecting it so it was natural that I might know more. I think they would have worked out the fan speed and damper issues eventually, but my house is an hour from their base, so I gently intervened both out of curiosity and the desire to get it over with.

To their credit they seemed to take that well...if they were defensive or resentful, they hid it well. They followed up to be sure I was happy with the result.

By tinkering with it to troubleshoot, there was the risk that I would liberate the factory installed smoke from some component, and had I done so I would have had to own up to it, painful though it would have been. Some would not have done that - fortunately the question didn't arise.

You have correctly deduced that I viewed the project as coursework / education. That my builder has had other similarly expensive systems fare much worse is driving our little venture.

I like your criticism of using the primary heater to make hot water - I think folks up north keeping oil furnaces hot all summer just for hot water are getting hosed - usage records for my Mom suggest that using her top-of-the-line annually tuned to 85% Weil McLain Gold oil burner costs an average of a gallon of oil per day (~130,000 Btu) to do a job that could also be done (silently) by <10 KWhr (20,000 - 30,000 Btu) at 1/4 the cost.

I'd not taken you as critical of your installers, but used your case as an example of how much a DIY guy may have to do to accrue sweat equity.
Open loop is still quite common in michigan in spite of high content of a variety of things in our water. That doesn't make them bad, just higher maintenance.
-No free lunch-
Joe