Let me start by saying that I had a HydroDelta Meg Tek TS 3.5 ton unit installed into my new build Feb 2008.  This is a two stage model with the hot water on demand feature.  The contractor actually told me that it was a 4ton unit but after researching, it is actually marketed as 3.5 tons.  I have a closed vertical loop system with 4 wells each 150' deep.  I have a 2,800 sq foot two story home where the great room 24x30 ft area is open to the second floor.  The system has Lennox zone board with 4 zones (1st floor, 2nd floor, master bedroom on 1st and basement.  The basement zone is currently turned off.  I am located near Steubenville, OH.  The system is equipped with Honeywell TH5110D thermostats, which I feel are way to active(room comes up to temp and doesn't change and it will call for heat again in 5-7 minutes.  They are all set on 70 except basement which is off.

After moving into the home in March 08 I noticed the system running constantly but the contractor said this was normal for heat pumps and because of zones chasing themselves.  I still thought this to be odd and noticed using over 100kw a day so I started watching output temps. at the registers and the furnace itself.  After a day or two I determined that the 1st stage would run 10 minutes blowing 70 degree air and then go to second stage and blow about 87 degree air.  After several service calls contractor determined reversing valve wasn't engaging fully or sticking.  The unit was pulled out and sent back to Hydro delta where they supposedly replaced the reversing valve and retested the entire system.

The system was re-installed around June 1st so there was really no need for heat at that point but when I tried to run the air conditioning that evening it failed.  Apparantly the thorough testing at the factory was not so thorough.  It was determined that a connection on the board was broken because of over tightening.  Although, after that fix, through the summer months the system seemed to run constantly after  during the hot hours of the day 12:00pm to 9:00pm.  My electric bill without any heating or cooling in the month of May was $90.  We are at 7.5 cents per kilowatt in our area.  During the summer months my electric bills were between $135 and $160 which I didn't feel were out of line.

Once we went back into the heating season the system seemed to be operating fine with output of around 84 degrees in 1st stage and 88 in 2nd stage with return air at 71 degrees.   This was with outside temps in the 30's and 40's.  Once we got to temps below 30 the 1st stage seemed to become ineffective and unit would have long runs in second stage until it hit the hour run time and then go into the backup 10kw strip heat.  Through November I noticed air temps dropping to upper 70's for first stage and around 85 for second stage.  My electric bill for Nov. ended up at $260 based on 3500 kw used.  In Dec. my bill has jumped to $320. 

I expressed my concerns to the contractor that the unit seemed to be very unpredictble(sometimes 79 1st stage sometimes 84) sometimes 83 2nd stage sometimes 88 and the backup heat kicking on around 30degrees outside temp. The real problem seemed to be the 2nd floor zone(farthest from furnace) with very low volume outputs and lower air temps causing it to run for long periods of time.  

On top of this, the hot water on demand seemed to be locking out and taking an hour and half to two hours to heat water used from a ten minute shower.  He came out and adjusted the hot water temp setting from 120 to 108 and this did help this situation but in my opinion its defeating the purpose of the extra money I spent for the design.

I had them check my ewt and it was the 37deg ant owt at 33 deg.  The contractor feels the issue is with my houses heat loss and nothing to do with the system.  I asked him to do a heat loss test to prove it and he said he didn't have the equipment.  Basically at this point he feels my expectations of the system are too great and that my utility bills are in line with other homes with these sized units.

I know there is something wrong and actually have caught it not operating in 1st stage cycles again a couple of times in the past week.  I know there are alot of variables at play and my contractor wants nothing to do with me now so I'm wandering how I should proceed?   Anything I can check? Bring in another contractor?  Threaten litigation?

I have no confidence in the system and after reading other owners problems I feel stuck with an expensive system that doesn't work!

Another happy Hydrodelta customer!

To prove fault you'll need data. An independent contractor able to measure duct pressures, air flows, water flows, temperature differences, and power consumption should be able to determine whether the SYSTEM is performing as specified. Those tests could cost several hundred bucks, but you need that data.

If the system (Unit AND its zoning and ductwork) is underperforming then you'll have grounds for action via mediation, litigation, or complaint to state licensing board (Contractor is licensed? Permit(s) were pulled?)

Whether your house is leaky is immaterial - contractor should have run load calculations early in the design process.

Your power bills, though aggravating, are not helpful in assigning fault unless unit has its own submeter (I recall hearing that Hydro Delta specifically did install submeters with every system???)

We'll do our best to help you out - good luck.

Thanks for the input.  I kind of figured the only way to prove fault was through a collection of data which is why I have accumulated all the service records and am noting date and time anytime I see something out of the norm.   

Where would I look to find the submeter and what should the avg readings be? 

Does the fluctuating output air temperatures seem right or shouldn't they be pretty constant from day to day?

Do you think it will be easy to find another certified contractor willing to come in  and critique a colleagues work?  I thought this would be the only way to go and would cost some money but in the long run  keeping this thing in my house at its current performance isn't a long term answer.

I love the comment about another Happy Hydro Delta customer.  I knew that would be coming up after all the painful stories that I have read in the last week.  Although I am strongly against litigation with all the problems I have read any mentionings of a class action suit?

Thanks for the info.

Ken

I think the next step on your journey is to contact the manufacturer and ask for a different contractor.
The varied air temperatures are not necessarily uncommon as water temperatures fluctuate.
The Air temp rise strikes me as low, but I have no knowledge of your systems parameters. Much of that can be found in the owners manual (with the manufacturers I use). You could compare EWT, LWT and flow to air temp rise.
Unfortunately I've not met a happy Hydrodelta customer, but I wouldn't. Presumably they would stick with their installing contractor. We do seem to hear much negative feed back on many of the units that offer on demand hot water. I'm just skeptical that a company could stay in business if all their prudocts failed out of the box.
So again start with the Manufacturer, then the distributer, then a competitive contractor (avoid any that seem more interested in trashing the dealer or product than solving your problems).
Let's also explore the temp rise data further.
Good Luck,
Joe

Joe,

 

Thanks for the feedback.  I will look into other contractors in the area that service that brand first.  I will also try to find what the temp. rise in 1st and 2nd stage should be.  From the all comments I've read shouldn't temps be more in the low 90's range or roughly about 20deg higher than return air?

 

Thanks Again,

 

Ken

I would gues 20ish rise. You aren't that far off which is why I'd be interested in the manual tables.
For everyone interested; the M.O. of good service techs is to first work with what you have/only replace what you have to.
We're not going to throw away your heat pump, Ken, unless we have too. Even products with bad reps have units that perform. I like that they pulled the unit and did remote repairs, that indicates that they are not choosing course of action based soley on cost.
I had a service problem recently where the issue was extremely illusive. My conclusion (unconfirmed) was loose debris in the refrigeration circuit. The manufacturer has a "no return policy. The distributor does not. I had to jump through some hoops, but the EXTREMELY patient homeowner recieved a brand new 5 ton heat pump, as well as some duct modifications, filters and plumbing modifications from us.
Point is, it was a loser for me and for the dstributor, but we did what was right.
Keep making your phone calls and find someone that wants to make it right.
Keep us posted.
J

Low supply air temps sometimes arise from leaks of cold air into return ducts in unconditioned spaces - it doesn't take much during really cold weather.

Joe,

I checked the manual and it showed 1st stage 5-10 degrees rise and 2nd stage 16-20 degrees.   The 5-10 in 1st seems very low to me.

Over the weekend it was very cold in ohio but  in 1st stage I am getting about 77 and 2nd stage about 82.5.  These temps are being taken right at the furnace and this is with return air at 70-71.  I find it very hard to believe that at these temps you can heat a home efficiently. 

The curious thing is that on a couple days in a row I caught the system only producing 70-71 in 1st stage intermittantly(which was also return air temp) and on Saturday all day long.  On Sunday it was back to 77.  All of this is with ewt at 37 degrees as of the other day.

Earlier in the winter I was at 84 1st and 89 2nd

The problems I had earlier in the year were almost identical but 1st stage wasn't working at all.  Also, the only reason they took the system back to the mfg was because I insisted it done that way.  I am currently trying to collect a couple weeks worth of data to prove my point something is amiss. 

Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Ken

 

My return air temp has been right near the level of room temp. 70 all the time.  This is being taken right at the furnace.

My supply temps are also being taken right at the furnace trunk.

I do have some supply runs which are 2-3 degrees lower than the others which is probably due to leaks and sucking in colder air.  I have been trying to tape up corners and seems to eliminate but some are in the second floor.

Any other thoughts?

thanks

Ken

Supply leaks won't lower supply temperature - supply ducts are pressurized. Uninsulated or poorly insulated supply ducts are another matter, but a loss of 2-3 degrees isn't out of line for longer runs.

5-10 degree rise on low stage surprises me - seems like it wouldn't be comfortable, but that's just an opinion.

The 5-10 degree rise is uncomfortable and unable to bring house temp up.  I t really only maintains temp when weather is above mid twenties and loses temp when outside temps drop below that.  Basically,  running in second stage all the time or auxilary after an hour each zone.

 

The supply ducts are not insulated at all.  They are just your standard galv. ductwork.  Again,  I have 4 trunk lines with all the zones set up.  The basement is not finished but the temp. is low 60's.  Would you recommend insulating and if so what would you recommend using?  Is this something the contractor should have done on installation?  I can't recall seeing ductwork insulated in other geo homes I've been through.

I'm also concerned with the lack of airflow to second floor.  Any thoughts on booster fans on that trunk line or dampers on other supply lines where air flow is much greater?

 

Thanks,
Ken

All ducts should be insulated - amount varies by code and ranges between r4-r8. Foil backed fiberglass is common form of insulation - cut it to fit, wrap ducts, tape and apply mastic to taped seams.

Try balancing airflow by restricting flow to 1st floor at registers (might be noisy) or by adding manual balancing dampers.

Again, most of us here have little experience with your equipment save changing it out. Does the table in the book distinguish between different incoming water temps? What was the EWT earlier this winter when you had higher outputs? It is common for all brands to lose capacity with colder entering water (later in the winter). At what point does the aux. coil kick in (you mentioned 30 degrees earlier)? I don't know if your heat pump has any self diagnostics, but there may be fault codes for when it isn't running. I'm thinking it may be locking out intermittantly.
Code issues engineer mentions on duct insulation is only those that pass through unconditioned space, in our neck of the woods, or areas where condensation may occur, so it is much more common in a basement in a cooling dominated climate than here.
If you essentially forced contractor into an off site repair then I would expect your best bet would be elsewhere.
Joe

Agreed - we insulate all of it down here owing to crazy high summer dewpoints.

Emphasis up north should be on insulating ductwork in unconditioned space.

The table did specify temp increases based on 50 ewt and 32 ewt but the temp increase specs. were the same for both ewt's. odd??? 

I don't know what the ewt was earlier in the fall to make a relationship with output temp. change.

The aux. kicks in off and on below 30 and more consistently under 20.  If you try to raise the the temp by 1 degree you will definately bring it on!  The second floor call seems to be the one setting it off the most.  I suspect from lack of airflow and lower temps due to the longer runs.   Again, aux. is set to come on after a call lasts 60 minutes. 

Heat pump does have self diagnostics but the contractor was out last week and reported that there were no lock outs registered.

I am in the process off trying to find another local contractor who services this equipment but it looks like the only way to get a list is through hydro delta.  I have a call in and waiting for a response.


Thanks,

Ken

 

 

Ken,

 

Reading through all the postings I see a couple of items that may not have been covered that you might want to check into.  The return air temp seems to be in the normal range for what you have posted, but you may want to check the return air temp near the home make-up air source.  Things like bathroom fans, cloths dryers, kitchen stove vent fans and alike items can leak a lot of heat.  As you may already know, any air pumped out of your home from sources mentioned above, has to be replaced.  Air to air exchangers can help reduce these heat losses but not eliminate them. 

 

One other item, has there been any changes in the system blow fan speed?

Eric,

 

Thanks for the input.  The bathroom fans actually came up with my contractor so I stuffed some rags in them for the time being and I did notice that it eliminated cold air coming into the house.  I'm not sure what you mean by air to air exchangers so maybe you could elaborate more.

 

As far as I know nothing has been changed or adjusted on the fan system.  It sounds the same as it always did in the different variable speeds.

Thanks,

Ken

How goes Aden?
Air exchangers are ventilation units that exhaust air from your home through a heat exchanger that passes heat/cool to incoming air. As your house is only a year old it's possible that you have a "make-up air" which around here would be a code minimum ventilation system. If you do not have even that much (which could be why you have air coming through the bath fans) then we have other potential indoor air quality issues as well. We may want to re address that after we get your heat pump going.
For our purposes now a system that is overwelmed by code minimum ventillation has bigger problems.
Load calculations here include allowance for 100CFM of ventillation which is loosely the load of a 6" make up air. If you were provided with a load calculation work sheet it may tell you if that was figured in. In fact the more I look over your info I would like to see a heat load calculation.
3.5 T would be small for 2,800 sf here but you are considerably south of us (though only in the next state). My peers may have in sight on this, but I would think that you would add a little capacity for the on demand hot water feature as well. How many BTU's is your heat pump?
The problem solved thread should give you some hope.
Good luck,
J

Hi Joe,

 

I'm pretty sure my contractor didn't do a heat calc on my home.  When I asked for the info he waffled.  I'm sure he just spec'd it off other projects he has done. 

The heat pump is rated at 37,500 btu's per hour.  I think this is low but I'm no expert by any means.  

This system was also supposed to be able to heat my basement which is another 1500 sq ft.  Currently the basement thermostat is off, but I can't see how it could also handle that load when it can't handle the upstairs now.  I did notice that the system struggled to cool my house to 76 in the summer which made me weary of the sizing issue.

Does the thermostat kicking back on within 6-7 minutes after kicking off sound right or do you think I also have a heat loss problem?  Are there any tricks I could try with the thermostats to see if drafts going along the wall are setting them off.   Most of the times I have placed seperate digital thermostats next to the wall thermostat and they don't move in those 6-7 minutes.

Thanks for pointing me to problem solved thread because I had already mentioned this but was blown off.  Hydro delta still dragging their feet with a contractor list that I would like to get a 2nd opinion from.  They probably don't want me to prove there is a problem with their unit.

Ken

Is there any chance you have a pdf of your blue prints?
J