HVAC guy came today and took a look from downstairs up and upstairs down.  Have to say I am pleased with the overall impression about the plans. 

The big thing is the boiler, it's in great shape and only 15 years old.   He says I can keep it, but it's not going to be very useful, ??? You mean I maintained the damn thing and spent a gazillion bucks for this (top o'the line in 1994) and have these %&^%#@$& baseboards all over the house for no reason?   Sigh.

His solution is to have the split system live in the attic with a furnace for ac/heat, and air cleaner.  Have THAT hooked up to natural gas and run as the back up.  (waitaminute--gas line run up my house, how much is THAT gonna cost).

As the Attic will be well (but not over) insulated, and the stuff is not supposed to take up a lot of room we should be good there.

Good News, we will have geothermal heat and AC up there.

Geo thermal or Solar hot water with Nat gas back up.  I don't know what will be going on there, haven't seen the solar people yet.

Yay!  My ductwork is adequate with two exceptions.   On the first floor there is one small bathroom which would have been fine if we could keep the door open, but as my autistic son likes to deep sea fish in the toilet, we wil skip that.  Solution one adjoining closet loses a few inches of dead space and the vent lets out on the wall, should be fine.  I will need a 2nd intake for the furnace/ac.  I dont' know where he's going to want to site it, I forgot to ask.

The guy who came out works closely with a well company. He's seen a lot of systems go in existing homes through this well company.   They are going to coordinate.  HVAC guy loves the idea of the sump pump being an open loop system with a standing column on the well.   Irrigation is an excellent bleed for it so the AC will work even better. 

He's going to work out a Manual J and get back to us soon.

thanks you guys

Just remember that to get the tax credit of 30% for geothermal you must have the desuperheater (i.e. geothermal hot water).

Try to donate boilers and radiators to habitat or salv army for additional tax deductions. Are your electric rates extremely high? Why gas back-up?

J

To anwer your question Joe.ami in Massachusetts Electric heat is like a Yugo you have to drive. It seems cheap enough when you drive it, then it's pretty 'spensive and untimately an embarassment. No, the house has gas, I need it for my dryer and range, so the hook up will be staying regardless.

Anyway, the HVAC guy came back to me with the results of my Manual J today. Shocked the heck out of me. My nearly 3100 sq ft house only needs 3.5 tons!!! Wha???? We are part of a large subdivision and most of the houses have huge cathedral ceilings, lots of sliders, open floorplans and crappy windows. When we built, I drew my grandmother's floorplan which included lots of interior doors and 'enough' exterior windows. The builder was less than thrilled when we ordered higher quality windows and demanded 2x6 construction. Turns out I've been using the doors and window shades as dampers and vents in the since I moved in.

The builder installed a 5 ton Boiler and a 3 ton AC unit. And it was always turning on and off, never having owned a boiler, I had no idea it was not being efficient. The AC was always ok, but would have needed replacement in a year or two.

Ha.

Our well is more than adequate for the 3.5 ton system and apparently it doesn't need to bleed, but if it did, we would have it go into the sump well. It would certainly be adequate to handle the load.

The water is clear of mangase (?) and iron and next week they are going to test the pressure in the well for a standing level and something else. I will keep you posted.

Whoo hoo--until I get the bill

You might want to get second opinion. I have a 2400 sq ft house and seem to be getting 5 and 6 ton proposals.

Hi Sunnyflies,

Thanks for your concern. My HVAC/Drill guys are pretty trustworthy, but I did get some feedback/rough proposals from some other companies.

The Manuel J they did said 3 tons, I was concerned and went to HVACcomputer.com and spent the $49 bucks to see what I came out with. I come out with 3 tons. My A/C unit is 2 tons, I use it, but far less than most people in my area. My house stays pretty cool/warm.

A word about my house though, my Sq ft is not accurate. I used the total size of my house, and should not have included the basement, it's heated, but on a different system. Take 600 sqft off and it's 2500 sq ft. I have 9 windows facing east one door. One window facing north and shade on the south/west sides of the home all summer.

I did call a few companies about geothermal and had 2 evenutally come out. "Real expensive" was the first thing out of most everyone's mouth even before my questions were asked. But the 3 people who I contacted came back with the following information.

O, the first company I contacted drilled the well in 1998 for 12K and was more than happy to quote me $45K right off the bat becasue it's real expensive. When we started talking, he was sure he was dealing with a stupid woman. "Duh, you mean a well that's 11 years old needs to be redug?" Uhm, no, sorry. He called me back claiming to have found paperwork on my old account.. . we can do a 6 ton system for you do another 150' well and it'll only cost you about 15000 plus the drilling and then there's you HVAC equpment. WTF???? Six tons, do you really think so? Oh, yeah, the bigger it is, the more efficient it is. I'm thinking, LIKE A HUMMER????? OKAY, thanks, don't bother calling me back.

D. the next company who eventually returned my calls wanted a deposit up front BEFORE doing any estimates. When I said, "thank you for your time" he wrote up an off the cuff quote of 4 tons for $38K Again, WTF????? Do people buy this crap?

This brings me to W/S. They maintain my current AC and Boiler. Called me twice to ask if I had a floorplan for his 'computer program.' I said "oh, a Manual J" he said--you've been reading. Damn straight! Most of it on this forum. Anyway, he bought the drilling guy out who said 30gpm should be fine, but insisted on a 'drawdown' test. He also wants to analyze the water for iron and manganese (sp) well, no brown crud from the irrigation, but lets make sure.

I had two quotes from each in less than 24 hours of our last meeting. A fast and stripped down system or the full monty. Duh, the full monty!

I'm saving a lot on the 3 ton system, getting a two stage split, using the old boiler as a back up and having 2 new air cleaners (yay) a desuperheater, and a partgidge in a pear tree.

Unfortunately, I have to wait until we close on the refi.

Mary

mary

can i come install your system. just kidding

bob

Good job, Mary, on sticking with it and finding someone competent (hopefully).

Unfortunately, too many people really do believe that crap. In our area, there's a Hack that charges around $4,000.00 to first design a system for a home. He'll waive the fee if people are stupid enough to buy from him. It's disheartening to hear when people swallow and digest hook line and sinker until they learn it's too late.

Let us know how it all goes.

Kudos to you for doing your own Manual J and blowing off the clown telling you more tonnage would be more efficient.

Where are you in Mass? I grew up near Gloucester.

I don't understand why you'd need anywhere near 30 GPM for 3 tons.

I also like using the existing boiler as back up heat. more than once here people have suggested that a boiler had to be removed. With nat gas it is actually a great aux. heater.
j

Engineer, I grew up in Tewksbury, and currently live in Pepperell, where? About 5 miles south of Rte 3 in Nashua,nh. Love the North Shore try to get up that way about once a month. A friend has a house in Marblehead right on The Neck. Lovely, but wouldn't trade, she can't seem to change a lightblulb without the historic commision up in her face. Can you imagine trying to get permission to put solar or geo or wind up in that area. Wind would be ideal though.

Joe.ami, As you know I was quite p'd about losing my baseboard/boiler. I may end up having 2 sets of thermostats, but small price to pay for keeping something I really like an dhaving a great tandum for heating.

I have so many people to thank on this board for the great advice and invaluable experience I found on this board. You guys are awesome.

Mary

Hi Mary

You don't want to pump it into the sump you need a dry well. As for well company we only use Skillings and sons

I'm sure if I am reading it right but do not use the same well as your drinking water

And bleed off only happens in the winter when the well tempature gets too low

in Ma at 3100 sq ft  you should be around 6 ton

Bill

6 tons? Based on what load?

That is the area not 3.5 tons that comes from doing this every day in this area

my guy suggested a 5 ton unit also. 2500 sf. home. the el company wants it oversized so the strip heaters wont have to come on and he wants it based to a l-10 deg day. alwasys get a second opinion.

bob

oversizing that old bad idea

the ductwork has to be the right size oversizing makes it bigger

oversizing in the summer it will cool fast not getting the humidity out of the air

electric heat only comes on when it is really really cold

manual j tells you the load go by that

Hi Bill,

I'm dealing with Skillings and Sons thanks for the tip.

The 5 ton system would probably be overkill as my current heating system is a well maintained 15 year old nat gas boiler and it's only 3600 btus, and we are leaving it in place, my Ac unit is smaller, and I've never had a day that it couldn't handle. My estimates on the sq ftage of the house are off by more than 600 sq ft. We are leaving the basement's el;ectric heat in place.

1960 first and 2nd floors, 38x12 attic. comes to 2416 sq ft.

My well is only used for irrigation, and at that it's once a day for 6 months. My mistake for not clarifying the sump pump issue. I have a dry well in the yard from the origial system put in by the builder. any bleed would go there.

If your existing unit is a 3 ton unit and it works fine then a 3 ton unit is likely right. It might even be 1/2 ton to large since for heating you also benefit from the compressor heat.