first of all my compliments to everyone including the pros in the geo business here i detect a genuine attempt by everyone to help each other out. this is great and so unlike another board i am on. i am a diys i have installed water systems and my own a/c in the 70s.  it still works after 35 years. 

i am interested in this concept but i am not able to spend 20k or more for it so i must go at it myself.  so i have some questions and what i am proposing as follows.

1. i have access to a backhoe i am going to run a 600ft. line with 2 1in lines in it for a total run of 1200ft. i can go even more if need be at 6f deep.

2. i am looking at a 5 ton unit for a house with 2600sq ft.  i have lots of glass and i undersized my a/c but i will not do that again as i have had to add a split a/c in our family room.

i have questions as to the operation of this unit.  does it operate like an a/c and cycle on and off?  what size pump will i need to run the solution throgh the pipes? what pressure does this system operate at?  based on my unit size am i putting enough pipe in the ground. i suppose i couuld easily go up to 2400ft. in my trench if needed. 

that should do it for now. any help honestly appreciated.

oh my cost for this system with rebates and tax credit should not exceed 1,000.00 pretty cheap for new a/c let alone the rest

thanks

bob

Heat pump sizing would be based on a manual j calc, and your duct system. Trench size will be based on type of loop system, type of soil and heat pump size. Pump size depends on loop size.
$1,000 is less than a 5 ton a/c wholesale.
I would suggest that you:
Hire someone to at least design the system for you
Raise your budget
Good luck,
Joe

joe

you are not getting it my total cost for the unit and work will be 8,000 but with rebates my out of pocket drops greatly. you didnt really answer my questions at all. once again we encounter resistance because we want to do it ourselves. i see posts here where people have spent thousands for design and instanllationa and still the system doenst work. there will be an experinced diyser post all i need.

thank you for no help whatsoever. in my many years in business you are the one i dont want any assistance from.

bob

You're out of line, Bob. If you bother to look through the threads on this board you'll see that Joe has been extraordinarily helpful to people with pro installations and DIYers alike. He's given away hours of his time for free. I'd be surprised if you get much help here after that post.
 
I find this board to be very diy-friendly - if you don't think so, try posting your questions over at HVAC-talk.com. The thing is, we don't know anything about your skills or knowledge and from your first post it sounds like you're starting from square one with no concept of unit or loop sizing, etc. I'd suggest educating yourself on the basics (most manufacturer's have decent design manuals that will get you started, or get ISGHPA material) and coming back if you have more specific questions. It's one thing for the pros to answer questions and offer opinions on design questions (which they do regularly) but it's a completely different matter to ask them to design your system for you for free, something that is worth $1000s if done properly. As you pointed out a good design makes the difference between a successful installation and not, whether it is a DIY or professional installation.

well its funny i called a company after this post and explained to him what i was doing and in about 15 minutes he has me lined up as to what to do and what i need. my information to him was the same as i posted here he didnt give me a run around that i needed a disigner to do what i needed. he has good common sense and has dealt in geo for 20 years plus done some installs. i went through this stuff when i put my first computer system in my business.

we finallly figured out the guy we were paying knew less than we did and out the door he went. when i asked i want good common sense not a run around or to get a off the wall answer. i want to hear from the guy that has done one from the groundup not out of a book.

as far as being out of line i dont hardly think so.

bob

by the way i have 2 p/m that my ideas are right and if anything i need to oversize my lines just a little more for safety sake and i will do that due to these 2 mens success. i also got advice instead of using 1in line go to 3/4in line to reduce friction. i dont understand that but i am accepting these gentlemen know what they are talking about they are not disiigners and they are not engineers just men with common sense that didnt go out and hire a designer that common sense accomplishes.

i take experience anytime over a book.

bob

Just curious, and wanting to stay objective...

Bob, what has indicated to you that 5 ton is correct?

You post one message, wait an hour, get one reply and suddenly you come to the conclusion there some agenda against do-it-yourselfers. You need to chill out. No contractor that posts here recommends any homeowner to do-it-themselves, this just really isn't a do-it-yourself kind of bussiness. But they are still willing to give advise and help to people that insist on going that route. On HVAC-Talk.com do-it-yourselfers are actively discourged and good luck posting any questions having anything to do with pricing.

If these forums do not meet with your expectations, I suggest you start you very own Do-It-Yourself Geothermal heat pump forum.

As for you commet about, "oh my cost for this system with rebates and tax credit should not exceed 1,000.00 pretty cheap for new a/c let alone the rest", indicates you expect to install a system for less than $1,000, even with the 30% tax credit and state grants, your looking at at least 4 to 5k out of pocket for a system. My reaction is the same as Joe's, it just isn't going to happen for under 1k, and if you beleive it is, perhaps you could enlighten us with a cost break down, were always interested in learning something new. 
  

i want to take a minute to reply to all this. i posted as a diyser wanting help from people that have put their own systems in. for those who objected to my followup sorry. the el company was just here and did his FREE survey. guess what he came up with the size furnace that i did. i do a lot of reading and studying in order to figure things out. these furnaces will work and they can be put in by the average person interested in saving himself money.
now there are some folks that dont want to deal with this i have no problem with that. i have no problem with those folks making their living from the non-diyser more power to them.

he also oversized my furnace in order to have plenty of heat so it doesnt come on at their peak time. in addition they figure for a 10dg peak. so with the 2 speed unit i have selected i am going to be right where i need to be and it will work as it should.


there seems to be a train of thought here if you arent a professional then dont ask. these systems have a point where if you get too much money in them there is no return on your investment so in that case stay away from it. dont tell me that diysers are failures because i read where the pros make some bigtime mistakes then disappear leaving the homeowner who has invested a huge amount of money standing in the cold.

so those i upset sorry and in the future i will address my querys to the diys guys which should simplify matters.

thanks

bob

Bob, in response to your PM to me this afternoon, here are the answers:

I did not install any of my system myself.  I don't have enough hydraulics design skills, don't have access to good s/w programs for designing loop fields, don't have access to obtaining large machinery or specialized tools, and don't have access to needed suppliers.  And lastly, I don't have the time to do it my myself.

The part that I did do myself was install the instrumentation system ( http://www.welserver.com/ ), primarily to demonstrate that I got the performance claimed by WaterFurnace in all of its 'look how wonderful our COP and EER' advertisements claim (turns out to be true for me).

To answer your specific questions:

I'm using WaterFurnace Envision GSHP units.  Many, many details of my system are available to you at http://welserver.com/WEL0043/ and at http://www.pbase.com/neukranz/gshpinstall .

I'm using Grundfos pumps, UP 26-116, 385 watts each.  One pump for my 3 ton unit, and 2 pumps for my 5 ton unit.

I have 2" pipe between my pumps and my bore hole field.  Each hole uses 1" pipe.  My friction loss, coupled with using the 26-116 pumps, is such that I'm pumping 14 gpm through my 3 ton unit, and 21 gpm through my 5 ton unit.  I estimate I have about one mile of pipe total.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,

Bill

bill

thanks for the information i have another member with p/m about the same system. he is using 1000 ft 2in pipe horizontal with one pump. he is running very low pressure and when the system is off the pump is off. he has a 5 ton unit and it works he put his own in also. im curious how are you bringing the 2in in are you reducing to 1in outside or what? i like the idea of the larger pipe as it will reduce pressure needed and the larger pipe gives more capacity to draw from against 4 or 5 in pipes.. when the systme if off it will be accumulating.

i suppose i could go with els and bring the sytem up the basement wall to the inside of the house but it has to be reduced somewhere correct? this concept and idea is clearing up in my old mind. now to get busy digging.

bob

Bob, my 2" pipe between my bore hole field and my pumps is terminated as follows (all of my pipe is HDPE up to the GSHP units):

At the pumps end of the 2" pipe, the 2" pipe is first split (Tee) into two 1.5" HDPE pipes. At the pump(s), which are just a few feet away from the GSHP units, the 1.5" pipe is reduced to 1" pipe to/from the GSHP units.

At the bore hole field end of the 2" pipe, the 2" pipe is somehow attached to an in-ground manifold that distributes the water to each bore hole via 1" pipe.  I didn't see this part of the installation so I don't have any more details.

Best regards,

Bill

Hey bob,

    I'm a long time lurker here, and compulsive diy'er, and I've found everyone on this forum very helpfull and dedicated to growing the field of groundsource heat pumps. I don't want to pick a fight here, but asking everyone here to design your system for free, sight unseen based on sketchy info, is pretty unresonable.
    This place is a treasure trove of info, if you really dig through the links on the second thread and previous posts you can answer 90+% of your own questions. I'm sure everyone is welome here, do a little reading, ask good questions and people are happy to help.
    As far as costs go, I can testify that there is no free lunch. I am almost finished with my project and i've spent 3500$. Sounds like a deal, huh? Well the devils in the details. I started with a new Trane gebv036, that I found an industrial overbuy auction for 800$ Almost a third of retail. Problem is I bought it before the tax credits came about and despite it getting a COP of 4.7 with enough loop, it's not EnergyStar rated so no tax credit. Pipe and drilling my own loops accounted for the rest(it's possible, but oh, it did suck). Point is if you pinch every penny, and do everything yourself, you can do it cheap. But if I valued my time and labor at min. wage this project would have clocked in at 15 to 20 thousand dollars. And I probably won't get a dime back in taxes.

Good luck

Greg Spike

greg

no offence but there is a little protectionism here and as i said i dont have a problem for people trying to make a living out of this field and serve those that do not want to work as some of us do. but there are some folks here that do as i do and look for ways to save money. as i stated spending 25 to 50 thousand to save a few dollars over fossle fuels is not workable or feasable in my mind. i do not look at what i do as far as study and learn really a cost to me i also do not considr my time free time as a cost to me. i have already noted there are some installs out there that do not work with 50k spent with supposed experts.

i called the el. company and they came out and did a free study for me that if i had to pay for would have been very expensive and would not have been any better than what i got. i have recieved some very good advice already here by folks that believe as i do and get joy out of making somehing work and the joy of saving big bux what s wrong with this. im sorry there really no secrets anymore if i cant get help here there are other places.

yes i came a little unglued but after i made my statement its all over and time to move on. just so you know i got a quote on 2in pipe of 1.29 a foot but aftr looking around i got what i needed for 39c a foot so see it pays to think and look around. same thing applies to this system.. now if you get your pocket picked that s your problem. not mine. my original thought was a 5 ton unit for our home and i was right on the money.

i will say there are some people who want the absolute best and are willing to pay for it good for them. i dont have anything or want anything to brag about but good for the others and the ones that serve them up what they want. i have spent my entire life in sales and there are people out there that will not be satisfied with second best so that is where the profit is made for lots of folks.

bob

Are you sure about that model number? There's a Trane GEVB036 listing on the following site:

http://www.ahridirectory.org/ahriDirectory/pages/wbahp/defaultSearch.aspx

It has an ARI-Certified Performance rating, I was looking at the Energy Star Website, and it says All energy star rated system automatically qualify, but it also goes on to say that

Same criteria as ENERGY STAR:

Closed Loop:
EER >= 14.1
COP >= 3.3

Open Loop:
EER >= 16.2
COP >= 3.6

Which leads me to beleive that if you have a system that meets or exceed the minimum criteria it also qualifies for the tax break. As for buying the system before the tax break, I bleieve it's when the system is placed into service is when the tax credit applies. If you can provide some documentation (have a local inspector to approve the install perhaps) your golden.

Also listed on the tax form 5695, in the instructions, To qualify for the credit, the heat pump property must meet the energy star requirements that are in effect at the time of purchase. 

It does not specifically say the system has to be Energy Star approved.  

greg

where did you find this trane for this price?

thanks

bob

well according to here the new deal is 30% i just replaced my windows and i will get 450.00 back for them what a deal huh. i thought tht furnace deal was too good to be true. but at 800.00 your credit will only be lets see 240.00 but every little bit helps. our el. company has a 450.00 ton rebate so i will get the who system for free by doing most of the work myself. of course it wont have all the bells and whistles but it will work as intened.

bob

Greg Spike,
Are you saying you drilled your own verticals? Wow, I thought I was a crazy DIYer. I'd love to hear details.

I've also found this site to be incredibly helpful and friendly. The pros here who share their expertise, free of charge, are awsome - and very patient with newbie's like myself. The input from other DIYers is very useful and not rivaled by any other site around.

Just my two cents (retail value, about a penny).

Thanks everyone.

kwotz,

here is some free advice for you.

I have installed 100's of miles of ground looping.

 Do not run your loop in 2" pipe.  There are a lot better ways to do this.  2" pipe for a loop is a big mistake.