What is the drill rig for drilling DX holes in a circle, what is the hole diameter, average depth and cost to drill a group of ____ holes and how much time would that take with how many man hours???? Then how much work is involved in installing copper and completing that part of the install?

Total Green.... I am curious... could you answer this?

This is not trade secret stuff boys... What's with the lack of chat?

Ask me any question to do with building homes... I am happy to share my knowledge.

I shoot for $60/hr in time estimating manhours... materials for remodeling end up being 1/3 of costs... with lots of demo a 1/4.... with kitchens and baths 1/2, tennis courts 1/3 rebuild, new 1/2. Takes me a week to build a new tennis court with fencing and 120 man hours.

Anyone willing to share some GEO numbers from their history?

aj

email if not willing to do so on here.

Before we went geothermal, we invested a lot of time over several weeks to have 6 installers come out and quote us. Your building pricing is interesting, but if you wouldn't come out to our location to do the work, then the pricing is meaningless since contractors in this area, who are willing to do the work, may have totally different pricing structures. The same is true with geothermal, and any construction project for that matter. So why not just get quotes for the pricing part of your question?

As to real world COP's, I imagine everyone's house would be different due to duct work differences, geology differences, etc. I would ask installers what their programs show for COP, and ask them if they have any installations with monitoring systems to support this.

Also, if you don't waver from the pricing you listed based on site inspection, then you must have a large cushion in your pricing.

AJ, I am a geothermal driller in Utah. I do not install heat pumps. Most drillers don't. Most installers don't drill. You probably won't find any one person who can give you the answers you want while sitting in a front of a computer thousands of miles from you.

I would charge $14 - $18 per foot to drill in granite if you lived less than 50 miles from me with a $10,000 job minimum. I have no idea what the drillers in your area charge. Probably less since they are set up to drill in granite.

Drilling in granite will not have much of an effect on your COP. You might have less footage to drill since the TC of granite is about 1.4 compared to .9 for damp sand and gravel. If you oversize your loop then the COP will go up whether you drill in granite or not but you will never pay back the extra drilling cost.

As has been said elsewhere, you really need to get some local guys to look at and bid your project.

I come to these forums to learn and to help people with basic questions. What you are asking for is far from basic.

Good luck with your project. I hope to see you posting with updates and then with real world numbers on what it cost you and your efficiency numbers.

Regarding your granite drilling and DX system. I have a similar situation. I live atop hundreds of feet of quartz filled rock - very hard stuff with excellent thermal conductivity.

The DX installer that did my system had his own rig, as do many of the DX installers. They're small drilling rigs attached to Bobcats. They do a smaller diameter 4" bore for the DX loops and sometimes do them at a diagonal so that the loop field can be close at top but spread apart at the bottom.

With this type of installation, there's a good chance of getting almost no water movement, so the ability of the rock to carry away the heat/coolth from the DX loops is largely due to the thermal conductivity of the material, which is good. However, the loops have to be far enough apart that you don't saturate the rock mass and get loop interactions. I have temp sensors on my loops and had an extra borehole drilled for a "control" and found that you have to be very conservative in going far enough apart. The DX spec allows for loops to be relatively close together, but that's under different conditions. You need to insist on a spacing of 12'-15', minimum to get enough thermal mass to carry you through the winter. To be safer, I'd go with 150'/ton rather than the DX allowed 100'.

The problem the DX installers have is that their installation guidelines say that they need less loop because the conductivity is better. That's true if the loops are infinitely far apart and the ground is moisture laden, but in stone, you've got a different dynamic. Back to your initial question. Since my guy had his own rig, it was less expensive. However, because it was a small drilling setup, it didn't like drilling through hard rock and he spent a better part of a day for each 100' hole. Then he broke it trying to rush. An experience driller in your area wouldn't make this mistake.

As others note, the only way to find out is to get quotes from local drillers. If you're looking at DX, you need to get your installer lined up so that they can spec out the drilling before you get your quotes. Just remember - the bores have to be far enough apart or the system may fail mid-winter as the ground temperature drops well below freezing. I've measured mine down to 22F!

Posted By adkjacUpstateNY on 18 May 2010 07:40 AM

This is not trade secret stuff boys... What's with the lack of chat?

Got attitude?

+ 1 on the get some local talent to look at your project or to develop specs. These forums work because more people share "real data" about the whole process, not theory. Please report on your "real data" when available.
Contrary to what you may believe or disbelieve, drilling of any type is highly regarded as a black art. You make money by doing it faster and cheaper than the other guy while still delivering a quality product. So yes, drilling is trade secret stuff. just my .02

you're answer to me means no GEO expert here knows what effect drilling into granite has on the COP of a DX unit... the effect on the drilling cost... and overall install cost of say a 3 ton unit?

If you want installation costs, the installers here could give you something close. Well drilling costs are best from a local driller. You might find someone local who has a similar DX system and soil and has measured COP, but that is unlikely. So you can get software like "Ground Loop Design" that will model the type of soil/rock, heat exchanger, etc and estimate COP.

Posted By adkjacUpstateNY on 18 May 2010 07:40 AM
What is the drill rig for drilling DX holes in a circle, what is the hole diameter, average depth and cost to drill a group of ____ holes and how much time would that take with how many man hours???? Then how much work is involved in installing copper and completing that part of the install?

Total Green.... I am curious... could you answer this?

This is not trade secret stuff boys... What's with the lack of chat?

Ask me any question to do with building homes... I am happy to share my knowledge.

I shoot for $60/hr in time estimating manhours... materials for remodeling end up being 1/3 of costs... with lots of demo a 1/4.... with kitchens and baths 1/2, tennis courts 1/3 rebuild, new 1/2. Takes me a week to build a new tennis court with fencing and 120 man hours.

Anyone willing to share some GEO numbers from their history?

aj

email if not willing to do so on here.

Hello AJ,

When installing DX, we use blasting rigs to drill our 3.25" bore holes - depth from 70' -100' depending on engineering configuration.  Our cost to drill is a trade secret but varies with each job.  The amount of time to install and bed the earth taps also varies depending on the geology of the site. 

We appreciate your sharing knowledge of the building trade, but geothermal is a specialty contracting application and very complicated to do it right.   Yes, there are trade secrets when it comes to pricing and costs.   I'm sure my colleagues in the business who've spent lots of time and effort learning the craft would concur. 

Paul Auerbach
Total Green Geothermal
www.TotalGreenUS.com

Well... home tonight from a big dirty day landscaping....

There are no trade secrets needed today...

What we need is transparency and real hard working Americans.

Today... doing landscaping at Materials times 2.

2 men.... plus hand tools and a truck today...
Materials will add up to $2000 after two days... or 4 man days
also tracking sales, billing and followup warranty time of 3 days total... 3 man days.

There you go boys... go do some landscaping on me... you will be fine here or anywhere with these numbers...

Any travel over 20 minutes may add costs... depending.... and over 1.5 hours.... we stay overnight and add costs.

aj

For now.... I am thinking a small GEO is silly so go with high performance air system for

1/2 ton to 2 ton... which is plenty for R-40 to R-60 true insulation homes...

I will never be part of buiilding 5.5" walls ever ever ever again.

never!

aj

So... system price that I would think is good.

$10,000 installed. That's it... Not a dollar more.

And that's for homes from 2,000 to 3,000 feet

4,000 to 6,000 feet.... $20,000

IF they want to show off a great everything system.... then

6,000 to 10,000 foot home at say $50,000

aj

I am by the way.... into... Adirondack Camp style living

with size of units from 1,000 to 2,500 feet... more space needed... we add out buildings...

Really small units are neat to if done in a cluster for an extended family...

again,.. in Adirondack Great Camp style.... (grouping a few separate but path/porch attached.

aj

And really... thanks (tons) all for your info on drilling granite!!!!!!!!!!

I really like knowing details down to actual number of nails to roof and actual number of shingles to buy verses adding a percentage...

So... the rule with me is get the materials and plans down to a T... and then add labor less detailed!

My labor has proven to not need to be and cannot be figured well by spending even infinite time detailing it...

because it has proven to be a function of materials, job, customer, and location.

aj

Posted By adkjacUpstateNY on 20 May 2010 06:41 PM

So... system price that I would think is good.
$10,000 installed. That's it... Not a dollar more.
And that's for homes from 2,000 to 3,000 feet

Thanks ever so much for that valuable net.opinion.

Looby... price matters lots... number one with most that I know.

$40 to $50,000 for one small part of a home that is not a beautiful kitchen countertop...
is not what floats boats around here.

aj

Posted By adkjacUpstateNY on 22 May 2010 04:53 AM
...not what floats boats around here.

Helpful hint: If you don't like it, don't buy it.

And good luck with the granite countertop, I'm sure it'll pay
for itself RealSoonNow.

Posted By adkjacUpstateNY on 17 May 2010 10:31 PM
All the pros in here and not one can tell me about COP, cost and all to go GEO in Granite??????????????????

We have a couple of systems in Westchester,NY in granite The loops installed for ~$19/ft. They are all performing very well. COPs around 3.5. Although you should be aware that geology in no way translates into COP. Geothermal has more variables than conventional systems(plenty of opportunities to lose or gain efficiency) If you want to know how much it would cost in your neck of the woods call a local driller.

My neighbor is one of the biggest drillers of rock for blasting... you know highway work.... and now I know... his rig would do the job beautifully and for
the least Green$$$$.

I am finally starting to crack this GEO nut... My other vball buddy is huge in GEO unit sales as a wholesaler... yeah!!!

Total Green.... here I come... if this field has a huge mark up... I am in line to having the least installl costs...

and may have to get into it for customers that refuse to have anything else installed.

aj

Posted By adkjacUpstateNY on 22 May 2010 05:21 PM
... if this field has a huge mark up... I am in line to having the least installl costs...


aj

Let me save you a lot of trouble.   There is not a huge markup in Geo.

some hacks might quote outrageous prices,  but consumers most likely won't pay for it.

Good luck,  be sure and let us know how it goes for you.

Hey Dewayne.... If you knew me... you would know I like challenges... I built my first customer house from top to bottom doing carpentry, roofing, electric, plumbing, kitchen and bath installs, stairs, railings. Soon after added excavating, concrete, stair design and construction, home design, log walls, post and beam, and recently landscaping and tennis courts even. GEO doesn't scare me... the price does... but as of this site.... I have finally learned a bit about it thanks to all who participate here. I imagine you are very good at this craft of GEO. In my area, it has been a black art... not practiced much and not explained much. And... as to real install costs and real long term use... what I found was people spent so much money... they really had to like it just for that fact alone... Noone likes to dislike a big decision like that. And now we have a lot of newbies jumping in drooling over the 30% unlimited tax credit. I am so against tax credits... It is our tax money! It doesn't come from thin air! We should be taxing fossil fuels big time and sugar! A dollar a bottle on sugar drinks and a dollar a gallon for gas and a nickel a KWH for electric. That would drive people off of fossil and sugar... Look around the streets these days... How many people driving Escalades and weighing 500 pounds? Butterballs used to be rare... no more.

I like you Dewayne.... keep up the great GEO work that I am sure you do. I may end up being involved a tiny bit in GEO... for lakeside super large homes... but that's most likely the extent of it.

peace,
aj

off to meet clients and put finishing touches on my new specialty... landscaping! ha ha... variety is the spice of life for some of us

On Subject... Paul.... Total Green.... get in contact with me.... I am ready to tackle a DX install out this way with your group. Let's get to it.

aj