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Year in review
Last Post 19 May 2009 02:50 PM by engineer. 34 Replies.
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:1658
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| 08 Mar 2009 10:20 AM |
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We speak of the criteria by which folks select a system. With due respect to everyone's other concerns, my approach is $$$. We can speak of carbon footprints and such but only a select few can or would spend tens of thousands of dollars without financial ROI as well.
Many folks considering a system find their way here. What I'd love to illustrate for them is savings. So if you don't mind and you have the data available would you mind posting your:
House size
System type/size
Geographic Location
Average price/ KWhr
KW usage for Dec. 08, Jan. 09, Feb. 09
We know it's been a harsh winter, so it should be a great illustration. Those of you living in cooling dominated climates might want to do this again in Aug.
I'm sorry to have no data of my own to contribute, but with the $600 January NG bill and the tax credit; that may change soon.
Thanks,
Joe |
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Just a Mechanic;
Geothermal; Savings Underfoot |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:1499
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| 08 Mar 2009 03:37 PM |
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3400 SF under air
WF 038 Open Loop
North Florida
11 cents per kwh
approx 1000 kwh / month all 'winter', whole house.
Winter's over for now here - 80 today and waterskiers passing to and fro as I type this. |
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Curt Kinder
Absent data, you have only an opinion.
www.hoviscustombuilders.com
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a0128958
Advanced Member
Posts:534
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| 08 Mar 2009 04:43 PM |
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3400 sf living area, one story, ranch style, with large attic (all HVAC equip is up in attic)
WaterFurnace Envision 3 and 5 ton 2-stage variable speed water-to-air GSHP units, with separate pumps, connected in parallel to one loop
Closed vertical bore field loop - 8 holes, 20' spacing, 300' deep each, 1" HDPE pipe
Dallas
$0.125 / KWH
Dec. '08 = $87, Jan. '09 = $91, Feb. '09 = $28 (KWH: Dec. = 698, Jan. = 729, Feb. = 224)
(For comparison, 3 hottest months in '08: Jun. = $122, Jul. = $163, Aug. = $136)
Other additional info:
Avg of highs and lows for each month: Dec. '08 = 50 °F, Jan. '09 = 47°, Feb. = 55°
Tstats set at 68° for heating, 77° for cooling, with 4° setback for night (heating) / day (cooling).
Best regards,
Bill |
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Real time energy monitoring system at:
http://welserver.com/WEL0043/ |
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Masoud
Basic Member
Posts:147
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| 08 Mar 2009 04:45 PM |
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Hi Joe,
I live in your neighborhood in an 1800 sf one story house between Ann Arbor and Lansing in Michigan. I used propane for heating and domestic hot water until last autumn. That was replaced with a Tranquility 3 ton on a closed horizontal loop and two electric hot water tanks. I have had my thermostat set at 70 degrees. Hot water temp is set at 120 degrees. I like comfort, but I am frugal with energy use. Here are my numbers for combined heat and hot water this winter:
Dec 2008 936 KWH
Jan 2009 998 KWH
Feb 2009 784 KWH.
Electricity cost was $0.10 for Dec 2009, and $0.11 for Jan and Feb.
The GSHP's overall efficiency has been about 400% for electricity use and more than 5 times of the propane system.
I am not a big fan of ROI when it comes to a good cigar, a cold martini, and incidentally my heating and cooling system. That said, I switched because the price of propane seemed insanely out of control last summer, I had aging equipment, and I felt investing under the ground was a better choice than betting on Wall Street. I am happy with my choice, comfortable, low operation cost, quiet, and reliable.
Regards, Masoud
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:1658
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| 08 Mar 2009 08:58 PM |
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Mousad,
Any water skiers out your window today....
Certainly could be with our floods.
Was your installer Craig K or Craig S? |
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Just a Mechanic;
Geothermal; Savings Underfoot |
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Masoud
Basic Member
Posts:147
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| 08 Mar 2009 09:54 PM |
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Joe,
1- Too windy for skiers.
2- Craig S.
Regards, Masoud |
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robinnc
Basic Member
Posts:204
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| 08 Mar 2009 10:01 PM |
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Glad you started this thread! I came very close to starting one like this last week. I 'think' the title needs to be changed to more reflect what this thread is about thou....:)
Also...I think it should be 'pinned' at the top. .....Mods?
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TechGromit
Advanced Member
Posts:537
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| 09 Mar 2009 09:59 AM |
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Overall, I'm somewhat disappointed with the electric bills this winter, my highest being $400 one month. But I have to put things in retrospect. My last house was a 800 sq ft ranch heated with Natural gas and my highest gas bill ever was $200. I now own a house that has four times the sq. footage that has to be heated. If I was still using gas, givin the same sq. footage, I guess I could say my heating bills alone would be somewhere in the $800 range, not including the electric bill.
Naturally I don't think it's really possible to get a price per sq footage break down on heating, since some houses are better instalated and sealed than others. More passive solar heating, better windows and doors, all have a factor on the cost of heating.
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wirechief
New Member
Posts:60
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| 09 Mar 2009 10:11 AM |
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House size: 1500sq ft
System type/size: 5 ton Geocomfort
Geographic Location: West Mi.
Average price/ KWhr: (see chart)
Lowest temperature was -8.5 deg F house temp 70 degs with tstat setting of 69, Geo running 100%
design temp 5 deg F
average Kwh for appliances for 08 and before the geo was installed was about 780kwh my chart is for total usage. Geo was installed in Aug 08
date HDD KWh cost avg cost/kwh
11-01-08 818 1160 135 8.5 cent/kwh
12-01-08 1266 2036 227 8.9 cent/kwh
01-01-09 1557 2723 319 8.5 cent/kwh
02-01-09 1050 2281 269 8.5 cent/kwh
corrected cost/kwh for 11-01-08 (mis-calculated)
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1500 sq ft home with 5 ton Geocomfort heat pump
desuperheater,3200ft of horz loop. Howard city,MI. |
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wirechief
New Member
Posts:60
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| 09 Mar 2009 10:23 AM |
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I am not pleased with the Kwh usage however we cannot really complain about the heating and comfort that we
were able to obtain during the coldest days, i guess with geo systems we could of suffered much worse if our
loop was not large enough or if our geo was undersized. I hate to think what our government is going to bring us with their new energy plans, this could get ugly for those that are on fixed incomes.
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1500 sq ft home with 5 ton Geocomfort heat pump
desuperheater,3200ft of horz loop. Howard city,MI. |
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TechGromit
Advanced Member
Posts:537
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| 09 Mar 2009 10:33 AM |
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Posted By wirechief on 03/09/2009 10:11 AM
cost/kwh
11.6 cent/kwh
8.9 cent/kwh
8.5 cent/kwh
8.5 cent/kwh
Why is your kwh price changing month to month? |
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coolmccool
New Member
Posts:15
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| 09 Mar 2009 01:33 PM |
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House Size: 1800sq. ft. Ranch with full unfinished basement
Geo Unit: Comfort-Aire Geomax 2 3ton 2stage......Open Discharge........... Honeywell Vision Pro
Thermostat.
Location: Kalkaska, Mi. Northern Lower Penninsula
Price: Seperate Meter for Elect. Heat Discounted rate=.06735 per Kwh
Dec. 2008 1020 Kwh
Jan. 2009 1040 Kwh
Feb. 2009 780 Kwh
Also burned about 1 face cord of wood through winter! |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:1658
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| 09 Mar 2009 10:52 PM |
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Thanks for responses so far.
Robin NC, I would be reluctant to see this pinned to the top as it is regional and seasonal. I think that it is likely useful enough for all of us to consider starting similar threads each spring and fall (I don't think we're turning heads in New Mexico right now with the savings on our heating bills).
Wire Chief,
You mentioned before that you didn't opt for the lowest rate due to your personnal comfort zone.
Interuptable service in our areas, are seldom activated except in June-Aug. I am not as familiar with tri county, but will make inquiries and PM you with my findings.
Masoud, I spoke with Craig S. who was pleasantly suprised that your EWT's stayed out of the 20's. He mentioned a lot of high water levels on the property. If we're referring to the same Craig he was appreciative with the kind words. I've used him on many projects, most notably here, the house of B. Gilette.
j |
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Just a Mechanic;
Geothermal; Savings Underfoot |
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Masoud
Basic Member
Posts:147
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| 10 Mar 2009 11:34 AM |
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Joe,
That is right, water level is high here. I have two sump pumps in my basement, they run several times in an hour.
Now that the ground has thawed and we have had a lot of rain my EWT is down to 36F again, while the GSHP is not running as much with mild weather. It seems water seeping through cold top earth has a quick impact on the loop temp. When the top ground was frozen, changes in EWT were very slow, it would take about a week for a one degree change in either direction.
Regards, Masoud
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Brock
Advanced Member
Posts:505
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| 11 Mar 2009 02:13 PM |
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We have a 2200 sq ft ranch with walkout basement on the south side (indoor pool)(4000 sq ft of conditioned space) that was built in 2008. It has 2 inches of spray foam with 6 inches of bat and kept at about 73F. We have a Geo Comfort water to water 4 ton.
Green Bay, WI lat 45* north
$.07 / kwh (only run geo off peak)($.22 on peak)
Dec.08 2716 kwh, 19.1 therms, 1283 HDD, $237
Jan. 09 4046 kwh, 28.4 therms, 1602 HDD, $298
Feb. 09 3123 kwh, 29.2 therms, 1553 HDD, $244
So far each month I have also run snow melting (driveway) once consuming about 100kw each time. I also generated 208 kwh via solar over that same period. Our neighbors who built 5 years ago with a similar sized home with no indoor pool had a bill of $450 in Jan and they keep their house at 65F. |
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| Green Bay, WI. - 4 ton horizontal, 16k gallon indoor pool, 1.8kw solar PV setup, 3400 sq ft |
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kiphorn
New Member
Posts:39
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| 12 Mar 2009 01:52 PM |
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Our home is about 2,700 sf. Its a log home which I know isn't air tight and it has lots of windows.
My system is a CM Tranquility 27 4 ton unit closed loop system with 3 wells at 200' each.
My usage (which is way more than anything that has been posted so far):
Dec 2008- 3571 (940 HDD, $296.11)
Jan 2009- 4354 (1214 HDD, $360.94)
Feb 2009-3407 (864 HDD, $282.44)
The house is kept at 69°.
Should I be alarmed at the usage?
FYI-
Oct 2008- 931 (368 HDD, $77.17)
Nov 2008- 2426 (641 HDD, 201.11)
**Edited to correct some incorrect information.** |
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Kip Horn
Tranquility 27 (June 2008) |
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Ona
Basic Member
Posts:174
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| 02 Apr 2009 09:15 PM |
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House size - 1950 sq ft
System type/size - WaterFurnace 3 ton (038) with desuperheater & 2 zone
(although zones were not working until February '09
Geographic Location - Upstate NY
Average price/ KWhr - 12cents
KW usage for:
Nov 08
GeoThermal system used 718 KWhrs
Electric coil backup + blower used 61 KWhrs
Heating Degree Days = 765
Dec 08
GeoThermal system used 1185 KWhrs
Electric coil backup + blower used 108 KWhrs
Heating Degree Days = 1133
Jan 09
GeoThermal system used 1678 KWhrs
Electric coil backup + blower used 748 KWhrs!
Heating Degree Days = 1449
Feb 09
GeoThermal system used 1318 KWhrs
Electric coil backup + blower used 73 KWhrs
Heating Degree Days = 1054
As you can see, in January my backup skyrocketed! This is most likely explained by the long period of freezing weather bringing down my loop temp. What I can tell from my data so far is that when the HDD's go above 40, my aux heat comes on. On the day that we had HDD>60, I used almost 200 KWhrs in just that one day.
Regarding costs, I used my previous 4 years oil use and came out with an average rate of oil use per HDD. Using this rate, and the average weekly price of fuel oil (from NYSERDA webiste) I assumed that I could purchase oil weekly at the cheapest rate (I know that this is not realistic). Based on that data I would have spent ~ $2,300 on oil in this time period. My actual electricity cost was $840. So my savings this winter was ~$1,460. Well, who knew that oil prices would be almost HALF of what they were the previous year??! If oil prices had remained the same this would have been a more significant savings.
This is what my usage graph looks like:
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 Attachment: HDD.jpg
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Ona
just trying to make my old home better
www.geochoices.com |
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ajsmama
New Member
Posts:28
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| 17 May 2009 10:26 AM |
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2656 sf 2 story 2x6 construction R 22 walls R38 attic R19 basement.
4 ton Tranquility 27 049 with desuperheater, 1 80 gal stone lined Vaughn tank for storage, another 80gal Vaughn wired, set to 120 F
Honeywell Vision Pro IAQ t-stats, 2 zones, zone 1 set to 65 at night, coming up 1 degree every 45 min to 68 in AM. Zone 2 set to 67 during day, going to 68 for kids 7pm, dropping back 11pm, coming up 6am.
Degree days for Hartford CT area under 5000 for 2008
This is total electric usage, avg temps from my bill - we have Energystar Fridge and DW (no heater), but non-ES washer and electric dryer (do app. 7 loads per week, 2-3 loads at a time to try to use dryer residual heat but maybe the hot water demand - wash in warm - is counteracting that). All CFLs in kitchen (most-used lights).
04/20/2009
1576kWH 32 days 49.25kWH/day $298.83 (turned off Aux Heat breaker 4/1/09) avg temp 45.2
03/19/2009
1893kWH 29 days 65.28kWH/day $355.72 avg temp 34.9
02/18/2009
2299kWH 30 days 76.63kWH/day $428.59 avg temp 27.8
01/19/2009
1566kWH 19 days 82.41kWH/day $290.47 estimated reading avg temp 22.5
12/31/2008
964kWH 13 days 74.18kWH/day $176.30 estimated reading (why this interim estimate I don't know) avg temp 29.7
12/18/2008
1774kWH 31 days 57.23kWH/day $328.13 avg temp 34.3 (this is first bill of the year with Aux Heat enabled - turned on breaker end of Nov)
11/17/2008
1578kWH 32 days 49.31kWH/day $293.53 avg temp 47.5 (no Aux Heat)
So with delivery charges and taxes we pay app 18 cents/kWH, and that's the all-electric "discount" rate.
But I'm not sure the Aux Heat is staged correctly - may be wired for all 15KW on 1st stage, that's the way the t-stat is set (I have another post on this subject). |
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geo fan
Basic Member
Posts:405
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| 17 May 2009 11:41 AM |
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ajsmama
Go to the dpuc website
select "choose an electric provider "
pick a genorator based on what ever criteria you want
dont let clandp pick it for you and charge more then any of there providers |
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ajsmama
New Member
Posts:28
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| 17 May 2009 06:19 PM |
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What's the DPUC website? I don't see anywhere on CL&P website about picking a supplier. |
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