heimdm
New Member
Posts:56
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| 15 Mar 2009 07:52 AM |
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We are replacing our air source heat pump with a 4 ton Climatemaster Tranquility 27 this spring in our 3600 square foot ranch. We are located 1/2 way between Indianapolis, IN and Bloomington, IN. To put it simply we live in a forest and our house had hard wood floors.... we have 100 ft oak trees all around us. My question is, what is the Climatemaster climadry option, should we get it... and how much does it add to the cost?
Thanks,
Dennis |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:1495
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| 15 Mar 2009 08:47 AM |
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Climadry is a dehumidification mode wherein the system dries air without cooling it. It operates by reheating the cooled dried air using hot gas from compressor.
I have no direct experience with it.
On one hand, a properly designed, zoned and ducted system should be able to provide adequate dehumidification without special provision.
On the other hand, there are times when humidity is high and there low / no sensible cooling load. That you are surrounded by trees implies a greater possibility of that occurring more often as trees block solar gain, reducing sensible load.
If you are more sensitive than average to high humidity perhaps it is a worthwhile option.
I hope others from your area or adjacent states with Climadry experience will comment. |
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Curt Kinder
Absent data, you have only an opinion.
www.hoviscustombuilders.com
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heimdm
New Member
Posts:56
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| 15 Mar 2009 09:04 AM |
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Last summer the AC would only run in the late afternoon. I am not bothered by the increase in humidity, but I know the wood floors do not find it very entertaining. What t-stat's are recommended with Climadry? |
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Farmboy
Basic Member
Posts:275
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| 15 Mar 2009 09:23 PM |
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I was quoted a 5 ton Climatemaster system with a Climadry option. We could deduct $2470 if we chose not to install. The contractor said they typically don't install them in our area along the western Oklahoma/Kansas border. I would just ask the contractor for a bid that includes the Climadry as an option. |
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heimdm
New Member
Posts:56
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| 15 Mar 2009 09:28 PM |
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What is your approximate square footage? |
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Farmboy
Basic Member
Posts:275
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| 15 Mar 2009 09:45 PM |
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3100sf, slab on grade (insulated underneath), ICF walls, energy efficient windows. truss roof, unvented attic, roof underdeck to be sprayed with 5" of foam. An independent Manual J showed 3.5 ton requirement, an independent duct design called for a 4 ton unit to meet the max CFM rqmt. The 5 ton bid is fodder for a separate thread since I question the design temps. |
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heimdm
New Member
Posts:56
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| 15 Mar 2009 09:52 PM |
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I had a 4 ton air source heat pump. I had a climatemaster contractor and a water furance contractor come out, they both are recommending 4-ton units. This house was built 1.5 years ago we have about basement too. We are going to have 2 zones upstairs and a zone for the basement. Our electric bill this winter was near $900 for a few months. I think the ASHP was installed incorrectly, which is part of the problem. I just hope 4 tons is the right size. |
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Masoud
Basic Member
Posts:147
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| 15 Mar 2009 10:01 PM |
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Hi Dennis,
I responded to your PM this morning.
I don't have real life experience with Climadry either, as there has not been any need for dehumidification since it was installed and briefly tested last fall.
The extra cost for this factory installed option, including a Climatemaster ATP32U02 tstat, was $1200. My Tranquility 27 is a 3 ton system. Climatemaster's ATP32U04 is a newer and improved programmable tstat with humidity sensor. You can download a manual from climatemaster.com. I am sure most major thermostat manufacturers offer compatible models.
Regular Tranquility 27 connected to a dehumidistat has a dehumidification mode, utilizing a lower than normal fan speed in AC, for better moisture removal from the air, when there is a call for dehumidification.
For the reasons pointed out by Engineer, in previous summers I had to use portable dehumidifiers in the house and I was not pleased with them.
Regards, Masoud |
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Farmboy
Basic Member
Posts:275
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| 15 Mar 2009 10:21 PM |
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It's somewhat reassuring that both contractors came to the same conclusion. Do you know if each did a Manual J load analysis to determine your heating and cooling loads? That will verify they took into account the type of construction, window area, air infiltration, etc. They just didn't replace an existing 4 ton ASHP?
Your ASHP may have been incorrectly installed, but it's also possible it was sized incorrectly or you just had a super cold winter. In either case it would be prudent to verify you BTUH requirements with a Manual J.
If you search this forum for threads about problems you'll learn that most are caused by improper sizing of the equipment, duct or loops or bad installation. If you're switching from an air source to ground source heat pump, did they verify the adequacy of your existing ductwork?
"I just hope 4 tons is the right size." As Engineer (a knowledgeable contributor to this forum) says in his tagline, "Without facts, you only have an opinion". It all starts with the Manual J. Dave |
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heimdm
New Member
Posts:56
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| 15 Mar 2009 10:31 PM |
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The guy from Climatemaster measured all the windows and door when he was out. Then he emailed me the output from a program called "Geodesigner." The guy from Climatemaster never seemed to measure anything. He just came out looked aroud and talked for about 20 minutes and then left. Does this look reasonable? The duct work today except the main trunk line of all flexible ducting. Under the new system all ducting will be replaced with aluminum duct work.
The results show the following:
Heating Load: 115,692 btu/hr
Heating Load Temp Diff: 70 Deg F
Cooling Load: 43,257 Btu/hr
Cooling Load Temp Diff: 25 Deg F
Sensible Cooling: 34,824
Reference City: Indianapolis, IN
Winter Design: 2 Deg F
Summer Deisgn: 92 Deg F
Building Balance Temp: 59 Deg F
Average Internal Gains: 21,998 Btu/hr
Heating Set Point: 72 Deg F
Cooling Set Point: 72 Deg F
Begin Cooling at: 70 Deg F
How Water Set Point: 130 Deg F
Hot water users: 4
Continous Fan: No
Annual heating: 167.7 million btu
Annual Cooling: 58.8 million btu
Annual water heating: 20.0 million btu
Daily Hot water use: 70 gallons |
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Farmboy
Basic Member
Posts:275
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| 15 Mar 2009 11:34 PM |
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Heimdm, Since you're in Indiana, I was expecting your heating load to exceed your cooling as is shown in your load data.
Heating. 115 kbtuh divided by 12 kbtuh/ton comes out to about 9.5 tons!
Cooling. 43 kbtuh divided by 12 kbtuh/ton comes out to around 3.5 tons.
So the cooling capacity of a 4 ton unit should meet your cooling needs, but that is dependent on your ground temps, flow rates, CFM and loop design which others can comment on.
Were you planning to use this Ground Source Heat Pump (GSHP) for heating? If your heat loss is accurate, don't think a 4 ton unit would be able to keep you comfortable. Were you planning some other kind of heating, i.e., fireplace, pellet stove, solar?
P.S. Did you mean to say the WF guy came out for 20 minutes. You can edit your comments. Dave |
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heimdm
New Member
Posts:56
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| 16 Mar 2009 10:00 PM |
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The main reason we are replacing our ASHP is because of the heating performance. When we switch over to emergency it heats the house, but the electric meter spins like crazy. Are we going to have the same problem with geo? We are thinking of adding a wood burning furance/stove in the future. Our hope was that the geo would be adaquet on all but the coldest of days. When it is near 0 outside what temps do you usuallly get blowing out of your geo? |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:1495
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| 16 Mar 2009 10:09 PM |
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A properly designed and installed geo should blow 20-25 deg F higher than room temp, and that should be sufficient in any climate if system is properly designed and installed.
There's a good bit of rigor and complexity buried in "properly designed and installed", though.
I share concern of others that your 115k btuh heat load seems awfully high.
Your efforts at this point might be better directed at resolving that heat load rather than worrying about the Climadry option |
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Curt Kinder
Absent data, you have only an opinion.
www.hoviscustombuilders.com
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heimdm
New Member
Posts:56
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| 16 Mar 2009 10:22 PM |
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So if the system is designed properly then we should be getting air temps near 90 degrees. That would be a significant boost from the current ASHP temps that were close to 70 degrees at best. Additionally, we new air handler will be located in the center of the house as opposed to where it is currently locationed which is at one end of the house.
The geothermal proposal for climate-master is 600ft of 6 pipe, so a total of 3600 feet. We have thick moiste clay. Any idea's what BTU output my emergency heat is putting out? We have cement fiber siding on the house. Any thoughts as to what is pushing up the heat requirements? |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:1495
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| 16 Mar 2009 10:28 PM |
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Btuh output of emergency heat is 3413 btu per kilowatt - Emergency heat strips are typically installed in kilowatt ratings starting with 5 snd ranging to 20.
Hardie siding alone is insufficient info to comment on reasons for heat loss.
70 degree air supplied by any heating system is basically useless - if anything it'll make you feel cold owing to drafts / wind chill.
You need a 2nd opinion on your load calcs and a rigorous analysis of your home's heat load and ways to reduce it. |
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Curt Kinder
Absent data, you have only an opinion.
www.hoviscustombuilders.com
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heimdm
New Member
Posts:56
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| 16 Mar 2009 10:56 PM |
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I can't seem to find the size of our strip heaters. However, I was able to find the output of my current system. I guess the data below explains why my ASHP sucked as soon as it go below 30.
Cooling capabilities: 48000 btu/hr
Heating
@ 47 degrees: 47,500 btu/hr | COP 3.4
@ 17 degrees: 30,600 btu/hr | COP 2.4
@ 00 degrees: 21,000 btu/hr | COP 1.8 |
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Farmboy
Basic Member
Posts:275
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| 16 Mar 2009 11:20 PM |
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Agree with Engineer about relooking your loads.
Just curious, is the 3600sf split between the main floor and basement, i.e., 1800sf each? OR is it 3600sf each? Was your ASHP designed to heat/cool both the main floor AND basement? What type of construction is your home: studs, ICF, SIP, other?
Your home is only 1.5 yrs old, so one would hope it was built with proper insulation and decent windows. Look at this thread for a discussion of heat loss thru walls and windows. There are others.
http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/view/topic/forumid/4/postid/55166/Default.aspx
You might also consider an energy audit possibly available thru your electric utility to determine if your experiencing abbynormal heat loss. |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:1654
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| 17 Mar 2009 09:11 AM |
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I echo the others that 115MBH and 4 ton don't seem to fit. Your "Geo design" print out, should tell you what percent of the heating requirement is met with geo. We shoot for around 95%. You may also only have 4 tons of duct work which causes the contractor to sometimes advises smallish systems and an extra $100/yr in aux. heat vs. costly duct modifications.
Clima dry is a water coil that uses water heated by your household air (during cooling and dehumidification) to re heat the air. Rather clever and I believe exclusive to CM. Other manufacturers use the aux coil which consumes much more energy.
Any thermostat with a dehumidification reading can operate it. Your system simply has a 6th operating choice. 1st or 2nd stage cool....1st, 2nd or third stage heat....and reheat.
I don't recommend it much in mid MI, but I wouldn't hesitate to employ it where a home owner such as Masoud is employing several dehumidifiers in the summer.
Good luck,
Joe |
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Just a Mechanic;
Geothermal; Savings Underfoot |
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heimdm
New Member
Posts:56
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| 17 Mar 2009 09:34 AM |
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The duct work is being completed ripped out. New duct work and vents are being installed. My installer said that the strip heaters would be need around 6%, so geo would be providing full heat for 94% of the time. |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:1654
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| 17 Mar 2009 08:04 PM |
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If that's so then I'm thinking one of these things doesn't go with the other 115MBH and 48MBH. How many estimates do you have? |
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Just a Mechanic;
Geothermal; Savings Underfoot |
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