Hey everybody, I'm back, miss me?

Last fall I went through a massive research project on converting from propane to geo.  One of the threads is here.  Winter caught up with me so I opted to get the geo well done, but wait for the shoulder season to do the final switch.  Here's where I'm at:

• Geo well is in---all outside work done.  Piping, pressure tank, valve work inside is complete  I've been assured that the capacity is enough for 5-6 ton.  I got a measly 100 gal/min.   It will be used as a standing column.  Total cost was around $15K.
• Major electrical work is done: 200A sub-panel pulled from a second meter socket on the house.  That meter will be for PSNH's HeatSmart program.  All that's left for electrical are the relatively short branch circuits that can't be installed until the equipment is in place.
  
• I sealed up the attic with closed-cell spray-foam insulation directly under the roof deck.  I'm halfway towards pulling out the blown-in fiberglass and replacing with R19 rolls over the ceilings.  Between getting a total of around R70, plus closing off all air infiltration, I have high hopes that this puts a huge dent in both ACH and radiant heat load.  Total cost there was around $5K.
  
• Given that, I've definitely settled on a 5-ton, two stage heat pump with two 10kW heat strips for backup.
  

So I'm at the point where I can press the Go Button on the final stage.  The basic shape of the work is:

• 5-ton, two stage GTHP.  It's between a Hydron Module or a Tranquility 27 (ClimateMaster or perhaps Bryant).
• Two 10KW backup heat strips
  
• Use DSH for assist with hot water.
• Split a single zone used for the whole house into two zones (1st floor/2nd floor).
• Per the zone split, most of the accessible ductwork will be replaced.

I'm getting down to sweating some of the design details, which I will split off into separate posts.  But I'd like to hear some opinions on the dynamics between the two contractors competing for the job.

The Hydron Module Guy:

His quote went up from the fall.  Claims HM had a Jan 1 price increase, which added $1K to the proposal, but the flip side is HM's new 10/10/10/10 warranty.  In followup conversations he claims his cost for the 5 ton when up $1900.

I'm unclear how he's going to design the zoning, other than using Aprilaire dampers and controls.

He's quoting $1200 to add a Bradford White 80 gal water tank to be piped into the DSH.  This will be a single-tank design.

Total cost w/water tank for the HM system is $25.8K.

Given the price increase on HM, he also quoted the same system with a Carrier two-stage heat pump (allegedly a relabeled Tranquility 27) for $24.4K

The ClimateMaster Guy:

This was the first guy I got involved with last fall.  His quote went down from last fall, especially when presented with the high points from the above quote.

His thought was that a Bryant air handler combined with a Tranquility 27 compressor unit would be optimal for doing the two-zone design.   Or maybe just have the entire GTHP be a Bryant (which is a relabeled Tranquility 27).

He's quoting $565 for a Vaughn 40 gal hydrastone tank for the DSH feeder tank, plus $965 for a 120 gal hydrastone primary hot water tank.  So this is $1520 for a dual-tank design, with seemingly better equipment.

Total cost w/dual water tanks is $24.5K.

I'll cover some of the detailed design questions in later posts, but I'd like to explore the business side of things here.  Unfortunately here in NH my options are fairly limited---and I have mixed feelings about both guys.   They each have made compelling pitches, but have also stretched the truth on selling points between the competing products they offer.

Thoughts on the Hydron Module Guy:

He's sold me pretty well on HM, and that seems to hold up with the opinions I've seen on this site.  But brand is but one component. 

He's an hour away, which could be a liability for heat emergencies.

The quote for what is a basic tank seems high.  He also quoted $675 for an Aprilaire 700A humidifer unit, which can be gotten for $180 online (does it really cost $500 to install an inline humidifer when you are rebuilding the trunk lines anyway?).  He's not at all interested in negotiating pricing, even when called on some of the more obviously inflated items.

When asked to jump in with a final pitch, he gave me the usual "we do good work and have a good product" spiel.  Which, ok, I can believe.  But he also sniped his competitor pretty hard on the fact that the CM guy subs out most of the install work, whereas he (the HM guy) uses an entirely in-house crew.  Went on to essentially accuse the CM guy of violating labor laws by using subs.  Did the FUD thing (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) with the "you never know which sub you'll get for your particular job" angle.

I don't know what to make of that.  My experience with GC's is that using independant subs was pretty common, and doesn't run afowl of labor laws when done properly.

Thoughts on the ClimateMaster Guy:

Been doing Geo in NH for a long, long time and I've only heard good things (his competitor aside).  He's 10 minutes away in the same town as me, which is a plus in the (hopefully low) chance I have a heat emergency.

His pricing on water tanks is much more reasonable, and seem to be better units.  He made a compelling case for a dual-tank system in terms of better efficiency and capacity.  His take on an inline humidifier is that it's better to wait to see if you really need one, given how much better a Geo system is over a fossil one.

Was quick on his feet when going over the finer points of the design, and seemed to have good ideas on solving some of the problems I presented.  With the zoning, he pointed out that the new Bryant control system is much better at handling the problem of air flow misbalancing that can occur when you attempt to run air through only half the ductwork.

On the other hand, he's a bit of a wheeler-dealer on the phone.  He made it clear he was somewhat flexible on price in the face of a competing proposal.  It was obviously he's trying to close this deal. 

But he wasn't above doing apples/oranges COP comparisons between ClimateMaster and Hydron Module units.  Was quick to downplay the competing equipment, although I suppose that's to be expected.

As I mentioned above, I don't know what to make of the in-house vs subs difference.

Current Assessment

The CM guy seems to offer a better value.  For the same price I'm getting what appears to be a superior DSH subsystem and a better zoning solution.

The HM guy comes in competitively on the main work, but appears to puff up the extras.  Seems like the DSH subsystem wouldn't be as good for the same price.  But he sells Hydron Module.

Seems like if I factored out the brand issue, and figured that both guys will do a competent job, the CM guy is probably the best choice.

So if you've managed to get this far... thoughts?

David;

Most of your questions about the desuperheater were answered on your thread about one tank or two.

As far as the tanks go... you really only need two standard electric tanks with efficiency ratings of .92 or higher. 40 or 50 gallon tanks can be had at the big box for about $300 each. 80 gallon tanks are also available, if you need that much storage but they cost a lot more.

As far the humidifier goes... We never put them on installs. We have more than 100 installs and have only put several humidifiers on. See how your home responds the first winter without one.

As far as pricing goes... You can find humidifiers online for the same cost as your contractor. Just keep in mind, he(or she)must add a mark-up to the cost IF he plans to stay in business. You DO want your installing contractor to stay in business!!! So, put a mark-up on that $180 and add three hours labor to it and $500 is about right. We charge $480 an installed humidifier.

Bergy

I would pass on the HM installer for 2 reasons 1. suggesting a single tank set up w DSH
2. installing a humidifier
Just sounds like his forte is not Geo! If thats the case(maybe , maybe not) his in house guys probably know less than him The guy who is subbing out might be using real pros Just my opinion! good luck

PS if your in NH contact Water Energy Distributors ( northeastgeo.com ) for references

Good Luck!

Bryant is a re labled CM
buffer tank matters for DSH
I employ subs myself which is most cost effective (for me and my custs)....you know what they say about a jack of all trades......
I only use steam humidifiers now but also suggest that home owners see first if they need one (of course I say this about zone systems as well...it's never too late to spend more money but you can't get back money you didn't need to spend).
You commented that you only heard good things about the CM guy but made no similar comment about the HM guy.
I generally refrain from negative comments about other contractors and their equipment (as most are good) and suggest my own merits as a motivating factor not their shortcomings.
Why no 3rd opinion?
j

Pretty much everyone I've spoken with who knows the Geo scene says that these guys are top-tier and do good work. 

Yes, the sniping surprised and disappointed me.  The CM guy danced around the edges a bit in that category---which I expect  to encounter in hopefully-small doses during a closing sell---but was nowhere near as direct and forceful as the HM guy.

The situation with each of these guys has a dimension of weirdness to it, but the HM guy's quirks seem to bother me more.  Harder to describe beyond that.

Why no 3rd?  I had a really hard time finding a third option back in the fall.  Both these guys are recommending similar solutions and at similar costs.  So the limited options I have now are at least converging.

My main instinct now is that a 3rd assessment is not likely to change the landscape a whole lot, so I'm really more in the mood to just get this done rather than go back to square one in the bidding process. 

makes sense to me.
It sounds like you are most warm and fuzzy about the CM guy so you'll have to trust your instincts eventually.
I did want to bring up one thing though about your comments in mark-ups.
And pleeeeaase people just accept this for what it is....
The prices we charge for things are determined by many factors that are easily forgotten. I personnaly charge more mark up on the accessories than the necessities with a notion that everyone must have heat, but most people don't have to have a deluxe air cleaner. Humidifiers can easily cause more call backs than even a geo heat pump so the P.I.T.A. factor (pain in the.....not the pocket bread) requires extra margin. That these guys were within 10% of one another shows that the other guy was a little bit better at hiding his mark-ups. That the low guy is willing to go lower makes you wonder if you're getting the barber with the good hair-cut (while his partner has a bad hair-cut; making the worst groomed the better barber for those who don't recognize the reference).
j

CM guy sounds like a better fit.

The costs of staying trained, staffed, equipped, insured and in vehicles that start for 2 AM no-heat callouts are such that hardware must be marked up.

Hardware has become a price-transparent commodity thanks to the internet.

Liveware (boots-on-the-ground) emains as crucial as ever.

Well, went with the CM guy:

• Bryant "communicating" air handler
• ClimateMaster 5 ton compressor
• Three zones (basement, main, 2nd floor), split on the trunks

Things are happening fast---I can barely keep up.  Main ducts are gone, as is the furnace.  New water tanks are in the basement, awaiting electrical before they can be plumbed.  Air handler and compressor units will come tomorrow.  Sheet metal guy shows up tomorrow to measure, then back to his shop for fab.

Zoom!

David,

Post some pics as you progress.

Bergy