I transferred this from another forum:
I purchased a Tranquility 27 geothermal unit made by Next Energy from SouthPort Geothermal in South Western Ontario.  It was the worst mistake I could have made (so far).  I have had nothing but trouble with it ever since it was installed in August of 2008, apart from the fact that the installer destroyed my backyard, septic, water line and drainage tile system, not to mention the jackhammering of my brick walls, loosening the mortar in the area and patching it all with silicone.  I was cold all winter having set the thermostat at room temperature, 72 degrees, the unit could never keep it at that temperature, it kept falling off to about 67.  I complained to my installer who seemed shocked at my problem at first, but after a few service calls became quite distant, repeating every time that everything was working fine. He doesn't want to answer my calls now and says if he sends a serviceman, and they don't find anything wrong, I will be forced to pay a service charge.  So much for 10 year parts, five year labour warranty.  I finally called the manufacturer who sent a rep to check the unit, and he repeated everything was working fine, but unhooked my HRV saying that it was bringing in cold air from outside which defeated the unit's capacity to heat. There goes $2550. down the toilet for the useless HRV.  He also turned on my emergency heat coils full time which I was formerly told were there for emergency only, when/if the pump failed.  After the rep left, I was more comfortable, but my electricity bills soared.  I was told initially my heating costs would be C$1190. a year.  So far my total usage is 23,000 KWH's. which works out to about $3300. a year.  Figure that out in your dollars.  I think my heat has been coming from the electrical coils only and not very much from the heat pump.  Right now, July 5/09, I have it set for 72 degrees but the humidity is overwhelming and I cannot control it, I have a dehumidifier working overtime in the basement and it cannot keep up. I may have to put in my 12,000 btu window air conditioner to handle the humidity. As this is the second printing to transfer to this forum, my installer showed up unannounced and adjusted my thermostat so the electric heat is postponed 10 minutes!!  Wha...does this mean I'm gonna be cold for an extra 10 minutes in Winter before I get some heat?
If anyone out there can help me with this problem, I sure would appreciate it.  One thing though, I would highly recommend any homeowner reading this to stay away from geothermal no matter what the manufacturers tell you.  My experience tells me they will not go the extra mile to solve problems (evidenced by my posting here).  The manufacturer's rep told me that at least I'm helping the environment having gone green (!).   It cost me $28,000. in Canadian Dollars to install and I am seriously thinking of going back to oil heat.
Regards, Wayne

Well I would start by saying Im sorry for your trouble
second I agree the HRV was a waste of money and likely was the sole source of your heating woes , depending on the size of the hrv and load of the house , I would venture to guess that if you could maintan 67 with it you could maintain 70 at least with out .
As for your electric bill and the time delay , it sounds like your aux. was wired to your 1st stage heat , which in my opinion was why they added a delay . In other words your heat pump runs alone for 10 min. then your heat pump runs with your electric heat . If a time delay is the controll you want to go I say half hour min.

I would start by 1 turning the aux off , with the hrv disconnected , and see if its enough .
easyiest way to dehumidify is lower the thermostat. If 72 and 60% rh isnt comfy try 71 , still sticky try 70

Wow.
Not cool.
Sorry for your trouble as well, but there are lots of pros here willing to help.
Got some questions for ya.
Brevity in the answers will help.
What is the man J heat load for the home?
What size is your unit (ie TTV038, TTV049...)?
Are you open or closed loop?
If closed what is the loop design?
Is your thermostat 2 stage?
When you say it's too humid in the home, how many minutes/hr do you say the system is operating on average? I can tell you that in MI, low temps and high precipitation has made it hard to dehumidify my home.
I will not offer excuses, but try to help you find explanations.
Virtually every brand of heat pump available has thousands of satisfied customers and often hundreds of un happy ones. Most unhappy customers are borne of poor installations.
If you provide me the above mentioned info and the closest major city to you, I should be able to help you determine what (~) size unit you should have and what your op cost should be (based on 20 year weather average).
We'll go from there.
Good Luck,
Joe

Small world isn't it? I had may system installed by the same contractor. My system seems to be working fine, he did heat load calc and said since I was planning on insulating my basement a 4 ton would work. I still have not insulated the basement, hopefully by the end of fall. I found last winter that my system kept up pretty good, I do have a wood stove which we use occasionally, on the real cold nights. I do turn off the breaker to my heat strip, but as far as I understand the heat load is done for 80-90% and the backup heat is supposed to cover the rest. As far as your garden and trenches go, my quote said to rough grade. The trenches sank considerably this winter and they advised me that might happen, so I will have to have that fixed by myself. As far as humidity this summer, it has been far too cool, the heat pump has turned on maybe twice. My system does not have climadry, so it only dehumidifies when the system is running. It does have a option to slow down the fan when it runs for humidity. Anyway, just thought I should leave my experience since it was the same contractor. John

Also, in the cold of winter around here, the heat pump seems to be running all the time, at least it seems that way.
At first it seems abit disconcerting, but that is just the nature of geothermal, when your house needs 100% of the heat load it will run 100% of the time.

The time delay as I understand on my thermostat, which is the one made by Climate Master, is that when it calls for 3rd stage(Strip Heat) it will delay it for the time set.

If I had to guess, I'd say I spent about $1200-00 on electricity to run the system last winter. But if I include my regular electric it would easily be double that, and that is just for 8 months of the year. If I was using oil heat, it would be $4000 + electric.

So are you electric bills for Geo alone or for your entire house needs? If for the entire house, it does not seem that bad.

John

Okay Wayne,
I ran the numbers you pm'd me through design calculator and have yet to see a smoking gun. I'll recap those numbers here for others to peek at.
Mount Forest Ontario
Heat loss 45mbh
Gain 20 mbh
tranquility 27 49mbh
closed loop horizontal 2400', 5.5'deep

What I need to know is heating load temp differential?
What are the current temps in your home?
How much the unit is running?
How much of the indicated electric usage is geo?
Price per Kwh about .12 us (is it ~.14)?
Were there things you were to do ie add insulation to the basement that remain undone?
How many gals (us) oil did you use with old system?
What kind of loop system 4 or 6 pipe trennch, slinkies, 1" or 3/4" pipe?

Somebody clearly rounded off heat loss calcs which is fine, but previous oil consumption will tell if we are in the ball park.
As I said my numbers are pretty close so we're looking for disparity.
It appears balance pt at which you would run aux should be around 1*f.
I need to know geo only electric consumption if that is not what was indicated. If need be subtract previous years usage.
Unit will not dehumidify if it is not running. Instead of running a window unit turn down your thermostat as geofan suggested if heat pump isn't running. Every 4 or five years we get cool summers in Michigan where we have to dial down to 67*f or so to dry out the house. That's not a heat pump thing that is a weather thing.

Your response to my questions indicates that you are open minded still (though frustrated). Keep the faith. We know the technology works, we just have to see what's up at your house.
Good Luck,
Joe

High end systems should be at least be offered with a dehumidifier (vs the "the AC does it - sometimes").

While I sympathize that this shouldn't be necessary, it would be easiest and most effective to find someone good and on-site to help you.

WHAT??

Why would I include a dehumidification system unless I KNOW the clients home will require one? Try selling that to someone getting bids not including one!

Jon... Please speak only of what you KNOW!

Bergy

Hi Bergy, thanks for your interest.  I would have very much liked to have had that choice (of having a dehumidification system or not).  When I converted from oil, I wanted everything I could get to bring fresh air into my home, therefore an HRV, a humidifier, because my home is very dry in the winter, a good, reliable, efficient (and sufficient) source of heat, the geothermal unit, and of course the geothermal unit for cooling.  I was not aware that a dehumidification system was needed or even available;  I thought that would be intrinsic to the system I purchased.  So yes I agree with both you and Jon because it should have been offered, and given to me as an option on a competitive quote.
I very much appreciate all the input from everyone;  your advice has been overwhelmingly helpful and instructive.

Regards, Wayne

Okay, I'm not a pro.  However, something caught my eye that may point to the issue needing fixed.  You mention the humidity is low in the winter and high in the summer.  I had no idea what your humidity does in the summer, so I looked it up.  It does get high there at times.  Both issues point to a leaky house.  A really tight house tends to maintain humidity in the winter since there isn't all the cold dry air coming from the outside.  Of course a leaky house lets in the warm wet air in the summer and the cold dry air in the winter, too.

I've gathered that old oil furnaces were traditionally significantly oversized.   Your oil usage and electrical usage numbers will allow others to confirm the numbers you're getting with the existing system.

The normal manual J heat load figures use an educated "guess" on infiltration numbers.  If the educated guess is way off from what your house really is, your system could be sized wrong.  If the infiltration were really high (AKA leaky house), the system would have been sized too small.  Therefore, you'd need the auxiliary heat more.

I may be all wet, but I believe the symptoms fit the above theory.   A blower door test would confirm the actual infiltration number.   

Bergy - please learn to READ and quote accurately. Include and offer are different things.

I have to INCLUDE a dehumidifier and it's cost to OFFER it to my clients.
Again... Please, speak only of what you know.

Bergy

Wayne the treatment of you and your yard as you described it is definately not cool and would aggravate anyone. In MI I would call my homeowner's insurance and they would get with the installer to make necessary repairs. I also might complain to the licensing body. But I sure wouldn't blame the manufacturer for bad digging. If no other negotiation works, you may require an attorney to motivate repair of your excavation complaints.

That said.....As I look over your numbers here and the one's you provided me privately, the heat pump seems to be doing every thing that was promised when you bought it (save maintaining 72*). The price of fuel oil dropped so your savings may be less against a .90 litre than a $1.35 litre, but as cold as the winter was $2,400 isn't chump change.
2 things remain to address however:
The ERV. This will add load and may or may not have been calculated into the heat loss you gave me.
The winter set point. I asked you for some thermostat information, as well as wether you had the breakers of to your aux. coil. Hopefully with those answers we can fix you up to a cozy 72* next winter.
Once that's done and the system delivers everything promised when you chose to buy it, I hope you'll be a happy geo owner.

Re. Dehumidification, your old air conditioner only dehumidifies while it's running, why would we expect the geo to be different? We have mild summers every 5 years or so where this circumstance (low ambient high rh) exists. Those years are great for sales of whole house dehumi's (~$2,000). Most folks choose to just set the AC to 67 instead.
Wish you luck,
J

Thank you for your continuing interest Joe.

First off and most importantly Joe, if you remember, I told you I did not have the emergency heat breakers turned on until the manufacturer's rep turned them on in March.....the coldest part of winter was over. The consumption numbers look good as you present them, but do not tell the whole story.

------That said.....As I look over your numbers here and the one's you provided me privately, the heat pump seems to be doing every thing that was promised when you bought it (save maintaining 72*).

I repeat, I was cold all winter from November to Mid-March with just the geo working and never attaining a comfortable temperature - stepoint 72 - most of the time it hovered arount 67.  When the manufacturer's rep turned the auxiliary heat on, my electricity consumption soared but I finally achieved setpoint.

What would my electricity bill have been had the emergency heat been turned on the whole of the coldest part of winter?  Would it be double, triple?  Or more? This is my concern now, and what will happen this coming winter. 

Yes, the geo rep disconnected my HRV completely and told me that I should not use it winter or summer.

According to the manuals I have, the thermostat is a climatemaster either ATP32U01 / ATP32U02 or ATP32U03/ATP32U04 - difficult to say, no markings on the unit and it was changed/upgraded by installer in April (ish).  I suspect it is now one of the latter two. 

The HRV is a Carrier HRVCCLH1150.

-----When you say turned on full time what do you mean (were the breakers off)? Your load indicates auxiliary required so if you weren't using aux. you might not achieve setpoint.

Yes, I finally achieved set point after the breakers, which were turned off all winter, were finally turned on...but now at what cost?  I did not turn them off, they were left off by the installer who said the aux was for emergency only;  they said the system should heat my home comfortably without (emergency) aux heat.  This is obviously not the case. The breakers are marked 'emergency heat'.

With the advice of my new friends in this forum, I have followed their instructions and turned down the set point two to three degrees and have achieved a comfortable dehumidification, then turned the thermostat back up for a comfortable cooling temperature.

This whole rigamarole reminds me of this guy who decided to buy a new suit. He goes into the tailor shop and the tailor measures him carefully and tells him to come back in a week.  When he comes back and tries on the new suit, he finds there are a few things wrong.  He tells the tailor that one arm is just a bit shorter than the other;  the tailor tells him to just bend his arm a bit and it won't be noticable, this he does.  Then he notices one leg shorter than the other, again the tailor tells him to just bend the leg a bit and no one will notice.  The man finds that the back of his neck is uncomfortable because the collar is pushed forward a bit, so the tailor tells him to just hold his chin to his chest and everything will be alright.  So the guy says fine, pays the tailor and leaves the shop. Walking down the sidewalk later, he passes two old ladies who see him walking with one bent leg, one bent arm and slouched over and head pointing at the sidewalk. One old lady says to the other, "look at that poor crippled man", and the other replies, "yes, but doesn't his suit fit nicely".

Kindest regards, Wayne

All told, I think the biggest problem is the way the equipment was presented.
Your installer's unfortunate choice of the word "emergency" instead of "auxiliary" left you with unfortunate expectations. If the paperwork left with you has a bin report, it will show you that the electric coils are expected to come on at X degrees (off the top of my head I think yours said -6f or so but don't hold me to it). That means whenever you are below that temp you will not reach set point with out auxiliary. Throw in some extra load (if not calculated in the loss you gave me) from an HRV and........on top of all that the longer you run below set-point without the coils, the cooler the EWT meaning lower capacity for your heat pump.
The numbers as I presented them work because they are  accurate. The weather we had was simply approaching a 10 or 20 year low.
I think a mild winter would have left you much more satisfied, but remember this, at whatever price/litre you would have used more oil this year than last year making your savings higher.
I think next winter will be when we can best measure success Wayne, in the meantime, enjoy the money you saved you are still thousands ahead.
joe

Your in southen ontario?? Phone Mike Holmes, see what he can do. I haven't seen an episode of his yet regarding geothermal and would like to see him install one or repair a system. I think he would be up to the challenge too.

My geothermal system was started april 07 and finally completed by Feb 08. My contractor was a total idiot and long story short, I did my homework. I even watched the process take place on another home in which I was in touch with the homeowner to see how things were going.

Anyway, I was fortunate that he dug the wells and connected the pipes correctly. I have a forced air tranquility 27 along with the water to water infloor unit. I have my forced air at 21C all the time and for 2 winters now it has worked quite well. The only problem I had was a capacitor had gone in the water to water unit. My contractor (remember idiot) would not come to service my unit as he said the warranty ran out. February to December?? 9 month warranty?? Anyway I was very lucky to find these guys http://www.geoutilities.ca/ and they bent over backwards to get my unit repaired by Dec 24th.

My infloor heats my garage and basement. My basement is nice and toasty, garage stays at a constant temperature. I am very happy with my system. I hope that someone can step up and repair your system. My unit worked amazingly well in july with some 30C weather, so much so my wife complained it was to cold in the house. I have never had the electric heat on either and we had some very cold weather last year not to mention tommorrow here is going to be a high of -28C.

There should be no reason why yours does not work, somebody screwed up and I hope they have the balls to own up and do the right thing. I hope the best for you, good luck...

Fred

1. Joe, you deserve congrats for good work on this post so one atta boy to you!
2. Wayne, what was the design set point? Was it 72 or ?
3.  Edited to ask this question:  Do you have a heat recovery unit for hot water connected?
4. My guess is that HRV was not included in the design (I think somebody mentioned this). Keep in mind the HRV is going to increase your energy consumption - and probably by a significant amount in the winter. If you are moving 2x3 times as much fresh air as normal you have effectively made a "tight" house into a "leaky" house. See the info below that I pulled from a HVAC professional forum I sometimes haunt.

"Canadians use HRVs more frequently than Americans do. HRVs are sized to move 2 to 3 times the amount of fresh air through a home as what ASHRAE 62.2 requires and typical American homes use.

People who live somewhere cold, need something that can give them a higher rate of ventilation especially in the winter time, because they end up with a window condenastion problem in the winter. You have to ventilate more in the winter to keep your windows clear." (posted by CARNAK)

Wayne is describing my experience with Tranq 27 exactly - except I never had an HRV. This is my first winter on geothermal and the last two months (Oct3-Dec3) which were relatively mild in November, used 1620 kwh more electricity than last year (much colder last year in same period) and when electric bill is compared to last year's electric plus natural gas bills (with a 30 year old forced air unit) I am $100 behind - and the cold weather hasn't even started. I was left with a 4' high pile of dirt which I've gradually spread over the property. I'm afraid to go too far in landscaping the area in case it's installed incorrectly. Supposedly I have 3 -180 feet deep vertical loops. I, too, was told to leave the electric heater's breaker off. The result is that my auxiliary heat ran a third of the time in November and now runs at least half the time for 2 hours plus at a stretch, even though the thermostat is showing one degree off the setpoint. This was supposed to be a planet-saving and long term money saving investment. I am so frustrated I could cry. I wonder if Wayne and I have the same supplier??? I get the same treatment and the serviceman who has come so far asks for my instruction booklets that came with unit and thermostat. Very confidence inspiring! First he put a booster on my compressor as the initial visit was because the compressor wouldn't come on. He said that problem was causing aux. heat setting to kick in (Breaker to electric still off). Next time he told me it WAS a two stage system (Duh) so it was OK for aux heat to be on all time. Trouble is it's not really even cold yet..... Help! The only good thing is knowing there's someone else out there with the same thing happening. I really think it's set up wrong - could my dealer have substituted a smaller compressor? How can I find out if he's not telling me. Other dealers seem reluctant to come and look, even for an inspection/service call fee.

Taffy,  how about if you start you own thread so that we  can keep the issues separate?


I guess I am confused. How can the auxiliary heater come on if the breaker is turned off?

I have three levels of "blowing". One called "heating" on thermostat - a mild current of air from registers, "heating 2" - a fairly loud, stronger current and finally "" - a big loud current which now runs about 1/2 the time - it's cold out (-6-8'C, I'm near Hamilton, Ontario) but not really cold. So thermostat reads "aux heat" and blows hard even though electric heater is not on. The Tranq 27 literature seems to indicate "heating 2"(is this second stage?) only comes on when it;s very cold and "aux" only if emerg heat (electric) is needed. But not the way mine works.........