Hello All ~

I am running into a problem which if I admit it to myself, I expected.  I have condensate forming on my basement ducts.  They are not insulated.  Also, the main duct coming out of the top of the unit is dripping down onto the unit itself and forming small puddles on the top of the metal frame.  In addition, the mechanical device on the side of the duct that separate the two zones has a small clear round piece that appears to have condensate on the inside of this.

Of course, I am concerned that my unit and other sensitive mechanics will be harmed by all this condensate.  My installer is coming out next Wednesday to take a look at it.  In the meantime, I was hoping to get some of your valued thoughts.

Some background:  It was clear from the beginning that my installer was not going to insulate the ducts.  I understand from this site that it is preferred, but my installer seemed to think that it would help to keep the basement warmer.  He is actually very compentent and response, but I'm afraid that this might be the one area that he does not do right.  He said that if I did want to insulate after, that a spray insulation would be best... any thoughts on this?

Thank You,
Ona

Yes, Insulation will help. How much of your ductwork is sweating? Just by the unit?

Not knowing your situation or location, you may have higher that normal levels of moisture in the basement area. Infiltration though cracks and walls.
Keeping your basement levels below 50% RH will detour Mold and mildew growth. A dehumidifier located in basement will help. You could look into Thermastor's Ultra-Aire which will also bring in fresh air.

Hello Ona, glad to see you here again. I posted long time ago the same problem as you are now facing. First, condensation as I was told is normal. I have a finish basement with wood parquet and my compressors are there. My installer came back to put rubber insulation. It's not exactly the main duct that is dripping but those metal pipes that are forming a lot of condensation esp. when the weather is warmer. I just put pan because the rubber insulation doesn't seal the condensation 100% and it helped a lot to protect the wood floor.

Hi Ona

R-8 insulation on all ductwork in unconditioned space is new york state code, not an option. Foam is great, but pricey. It sounds like he doesnt enjoy working with fiberglass insulation, cant say I blame him, but it is a necessary evil. Between heat loss in winter and condensation in summer, I dont really know how he can keep customers happy without it.

Jason

You can either condition the basement or insulate the ducts. More important than the R value is the vapor barrier.
You may find it just as efficient to improve the conditioning of the basement with the heat pump or a dehumidifier.
Joe

Thank you all for your responses. I am trying to figure out how to handle this. I wasn't aware of the NY State Code... thanks for letting me know Jason. Do you have a reference for that? Does anyone have an idea of what spray insulation costs?

Thanks Again!

Most spray foam often isn't approved for use on duct work. Insulation shall be listed and labled....
Again regarding code it suggests that insulation is to be employed while duct traverses unconditioned space or where condensation may occur. Therefore one of the fixes here (before we rant about code) is to condition the basement so that condensation does not occur.
You mentioned that you had the impression that "insulated ducts are preferred" and this may be the one part "your installer doesn't do right". I strongly disagree.
There is movement afoot to insulate ducts and seal joints etc. in residential basements and as an inspector and contractor I encourage neither. Insulating ducts costs more than a few bucks, so why not condition useable basement space? By not conditioning basement you add load to the ground floor anyway (it is remarkable how similar the load for a basement is to the additional load of a ground floor over unconditioned space).
Some may call me a dinosaur for the opinion, but I'm sick of design philosophies that suggest I seal my ducts tight enough to hold water, but then cut a register in them to "help dehumidify the basement".
If you wish to insulate the ducts, I'm not going to criticize you for it but as you point out you knew your installer wasn't going to do it. Get ready to write a big check, the code isn't going to help you here.
Good luck,
Joe

Dehumidifying the basement offers additional advantages for both building and occupant health and comfort.

I was amazed that my installers insulated return ductwork even though every inch of it is within the conditioned envelope. Not only is there a cost tradeoff for that, but it also reduced the size of return ductwork owing to truss opening constraints, etc

Thanks for the feedback. Joe - it appears that you and my installer are on similar wavelengths. I should also say that I have a lot of confidence in my installers opinion, as well as yours. The condensation puddles on my unit make me a little nervous though.

To give more detail... which I should have done in the first place... my basement is also the garage. It has both a garage door and a regular door going into it. Furthermore, we have been told that there is a lot of water under our foundation. Typically about 10-20 feet down, but when we get a lot of rain we can actually get some water come up through the floor (not inches, but just little puddles). So, we do have a very wet basement that would be difficult to dehumidify because it is constantly being opened to the ambient air.

I dont think you will spend as much to insulate the ducts, as you would to insulate and airseal the entire basement, I also would not take any measures to dehumidify that space(dehumidifier or geo) unless you were able to control what ever path the moisture is taking to get in. hot goes to cold and wet goes to dry. many people have tried to dehumidfy only to make the problem worse. I also respect Joes opinion but think he is off the mark on this one . I have never had an inspector suggest that I insulate , they mandate it. While codes and there enforcement certainly differ from area to area. I would show him the attached document page 5 ,maybe he will split the difference with you, any way it certainly couldnt hurt http://www.dos.state.ny.us/code/energycode/Forms_code/basic_requirements_2007.pdf Good Luck

Thanks for the info Jason. I also appreciate and value your opinion. You have all helped me so much in the past and thanks for your input now.

To give more detail... which I should have done in the first place... my basement is also the garage. It has both a garage door and a regular door going into it.
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Ona
just trying to make my old home better
www.geochoices.com

-Codes for garage and basement are very different. Yours would likely fall to the garage codes given this new information. This adds the twist that there are very specific rules to add duct openings to the space making it undesirable. It also has an impact on the type of insulation etc.
I don't think this is the whole picture though, is the system literally on the garage floor or seperated in a different room?


"I dont think you will spend as much to insulate the ducts, as you would to insulate and airseal the entire basement"

-The difference in our opinions stems from our definitions of basement. If the basement has finishable living space then I would not treat it as unconditioned space. I'm sure you've spent time around load calcs and understand that just insulating the duct is half the issue, you must also insulate the ceiling/underfloor space and still have greater load on the ground floor (in perpetuity) now that it is over unconditioned space.

" I have never had an inspector suggest that I insulate , they mandate it. While codes and there enforcement certainly differ from area to area. "

- Inspectors don't mandate, codes do. Our code MRC (michigan ammended IRC) and Energy code et al adopted by reference do not mandate insulating basement ducts, they mandate insulation on ducts in unconditioned spaces. I do not treat these as synonomous.
I think that it is unfortunate not to load for the basement as finished space in case folks wish to finish it down the road. Operating cost is similar and installation cost (without insulation) can be lower.
Obvious exceptions include unfinishable basements and basement garages.

Good Luck,
Joe

Obvious exceptions include unfinishable basements and basement garages.

Exactly Joe, It needs to be determined first if a space can be finished before any conditioning begins, controlling moisture infiltration in a old basement could be the most costly option. However I believe it is the only starting point ,if you wish to condition that space

I do agree with you about load scenario, operating cost and overall comfort of conditioning a basement space where applicable

My waterfurnace unit is on the floor of the area that serves as both our garage and our basement. There is no separation. We have never even considered turning this into a living area, but it doesn't mean it's out of the question for people who want to make that investment. There is insulation in the space between the basement/garage and the first floor. We're talking about ~1300 sq ft. When we had a boiler in the exact same location, the basement stayed at about 56 degrees F in the winter. Last winter with geothermal, it was about 46 degrees F throughout the winter.

Our neighbors had something done under their basement foundation which basically gave a path for the water to flow rather than push up through their floor. The contractor who fixed their problem said that it was like a river was running under their home. We are about 10 feet higher then them, so don't experience the water infiltration as often as they did. But we are considering this solution as well. I'm nervous about just adding epoxy because the force of water pushing up can be pretty strong.

Anyway, my husband feels that this only happens a handful of times throughout the summer so not to worry. But I still want to try to figure out a reasonable solution to protect the unit itself.

Thanks again for all your thoughts.

Anyway, my husband feels that this only happens a handful of times throughout the summer so not to worry. But I still want to try to figure out a reasonable solution to protect the unit itself.

This is a valid point as well and we should have addressed it sooner. We have toilet tanks that sweat at our house occasionally if certain conditions occur and it does not inspire angst with us. If it happens infrequently there may be little cause for concern. The pooling on ductwork or cabinet does not automatically equate to damage to electronic components.
Without seeing the situation, we have to take it somewhat on faith that your installer has determined the situation as acceptable and that decisions were made during the purchase based on discussion about these things.
If the unit is not isolated from the garage area it does bring up other questions regarding codes. Was unit inspected? Is it possible to make a furnace closet and condition it?
J

The unit was not inspected. I am assuming you mean by our town... but maybe you mean someone else? It is possible to make a furnace closet to protect the unit... I hadn't thought of that.

I don't know the relationship between yourselves and installer, but obviously some rules have been broken here. I try not to judge in these cases because occasionally a friend, relative or friend of a friend offers cut rate pricing based on the homeowners willingness to accept responsibility for some parts of the job.
Among the codes not addressed if the unit is sitting on your garage floor are; elevation of ignition source, protection from impact, duct insulation.......
I think a closet around the heat pump with an opening to condition it makes sense. It would also eliminate condensation 99.9% of the time.
J

Is the inspection something that the homeowner or installer normally arranges? Is this something that I should have dealt with? I had no prior relationship with the installer... I chose him based on interviews with 3 companies in person and 2 companies by phone.

Generally speaking a mechanical and electrical inspection would be required for a heat pump installation. I'm simply not privy to the conversations you had with your contractor and am therefore reluctant to jump to conclusions.
If we take away your modest angst about the condensation, if there are no other complaints I'd let it ride at this point. The inspector card is a tool that can be used once and we might want to save it for a larger problem (if one occurs).
For anyone shopping, these permits are hundreds of dollars passed along to the buyer, so make sure you compare apples to apples and don't criticize a contractor for following the rules. I don't have any moral platitudes to offer in this case but I like people to know what they are getting or not getting.
Regarding who secures the permit and inspection, understand that the permit purchaser assumes legal responsibility for the proper installation of the equipment.
Never-NEVER pull a permit for a project in your home unless you wish to assume full responsibility for it's design and installation. As an inspector I can tell you that you are better off with no permit at all than securing one for someone elses work.
A code official can go after a contractor that should have pulled a permit, but once one is pulled, legal action can only be taken against the permit holder. Civil action (and your own resources) are all that's left to you if you pull a homeowner permit and the contractor doesn't deliver.
j