We are also having some high electric bill issues with the Earthlinked DX systems. We have 3-tons up and 4-tons down (0.5-tons for basement/conditioned crawl). All new duct work throughout. We also had foam insulation added to the foundation walls and underside of the roof. Our 3800 sq ft (old) house has some energy envelope issues that were known by the contractor during design. They were probably not readily repairable and inlude large, single pane, historic windows.
 
Due to long-run cycles, we are wondering if the systems were undersized. We understand that this has been a very cold winter for our area (about 15 degrees colder) in the southern part of the mid atlantic but we would not have spent $45000 to have monthly electric bills over $400.  We were told the J-manual calculations were in our folder, but the contractor never showed them to us. I also questioned him about the efficientcy about the system in cold temperatures and I was ssured there would be no problem.

One of the compressor units had the O-rings go bad and leaked all the coolant. We ran for over a month on aux heat strips before realizing there was a problem when we got a bill. Turns out this was a factory advisory and it was repaired free.  We were not happy when the electric bill came in higher with the geo running "normally" than when we ran on the aux heat strips.

We keep our systems set for 65-67 heating.

Should we consider another system as a backup for cold temperatures--any suggestions  wood buring furnace, anything?  Or should we be getting someone out to go thru the systems to find the problem?


Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Your next step is to dis able the electric backup to see what part of the load the geo will really support. You could ask the instsaller that question but you may not get an accurate answer. Good luck keep us posted. Also obtain the manual j that was done for an independant review.

Don't disable the strip heat! Not that it has to have it to work, but so many people don't understand its function!!

I first suspect that the controls of the system (thermostats) are not set up correctly, and you are using the electric backup heat way more than needed. I've seen many dealers that thought they had the supplemental heat set up properly. But because they didn't fully understand the thermostat they used, it was set up to turn the heat pump off and run only on electric back up.

That said, I'm not saying that's the only possibility, but that's sure what it sounds like to me.

Keep us posted.

I'm not a pro. Why shouldn't a homeowner safely disable aux heat Temporarily to see how the system can perform, while the homeowner is home (since there is little chance of pipes freezing with the homeowner there)?

I agree that wiring and thermostat settings should be checked. It sounds like you are referring to a compressor lockout setting on the thermostat (not an auxiliary heat lockout). With non-DX geothermal heat pumps, it is my understanding that the compressor lockout setting should never be used if the system is designed and operating properly. Is there is a reason to use this feature with DX?

No, there is no reason to use compressor lockout on a DX system, either. However, some installers don't read up on all the information of the controls they are using, and don't get this and other settings set correctly. Maybe they thought they were setting it for stage locking, but locked out the compressor, or something else.

I'm not saying you can't temporarily disable the strip heat. But by temporarily, I don't mean for a few days, or for the whole week. Hopefully your installer is a competent professional, and should be able to competently check out the system. If you haven't contacted them, then they have to just assume it's working properly.

Where are you located? What type of loops do you have installed? What are your electric rates? What's the calculated balance point of the system? What type of controls are being used?

Just an update. Does anyone know what the temperture should be coming out of supply vents. I would consider the tempeature to be somewhat warm at the best. Aditinally, the air volume appears to be weak. It took 2 days to balance air flow for the heating and came back and set up the ac flow.

Heat strips are not running the system as they did when the O ring malfunctioned

Hubby is checking out some suggesuions thanks Clark

Jusy thought this might hekp

The company's engineer handled all wring for the lock out box--shouldn't be a problem

I have a few questions since I recently went through the process of evaluating my new system (I am just a homeowner):

1) Are the $400 electric bills when the heat strips were running constantly or after the O rings were repaired? If it's when just geo is running what was your electric bill when the electric strips were running constantly (the bill that tipped you off that something was wrong)?
2) What was your electric bill before geo and what do you pay per kwhr?
3) What fuel did you use to heat your home before geo? (i.e. natural gas, oil, air source heat pump?)
4) What did you pay per month for the other fuel you used?

It might be best if you tell us what you have spent per month for the entire season since you've installed geo or better yet how many KWHrs were used each month.

Also, some systems are designed to run constantly during the coldest months. Mine will run 100% of the time when it drops below 27 degrees F. I was told about this before my system went up so was not surprised by the constant running. I was also told that my system will blow with less force out of the vents and at a much cooler feel than a traditional system. I'm not saying that your situation is the same, but some evaluation and understanding as to how your system was designed seems necessary.

Hi Trister - I just posted a very similar post myself. I feel you. I don't think these systems work nearly as well as advertised. I am not happy with the amount of money we spent as well as Uncle Sam (courtesy of the US taxpayer) for utility bills that are as high as they are. Keep up posted as to what you find.

I have a few questions since I recently went through the process of evaluating my new system (I am just a homeowner): 1) Are the $400 electric bills when the heat strips were running constantly or after the O rings were repaired? If it's when just geo is running what was your electric bill when the electric strips were running constantly (the bill that tipped you off that something was wrong)?

WE are a DX systen
The O rings were repaired before the $400 electric.  After fixing the O rings, the next bill went up.  WE did have some unusually cold weather.   No problem with usualy heat strips running

We have a small farmette.  Hubby then went out and banked the north and west foundation walls with straw. 
Our temps are were about 10-15 degrees below normal.  This bill went down--The only reason being the addition of straw.  It was a little over $300.  God only knows what it would be without the straw

2) What was your electric bill before geo and what do you pay per kwhr? 3) What fuel did you use to heat your home before geo? (i.e. natural gas, oil, air source heat pump?) 4) What did you pay per month for the other fuel you used? It might be best if you tell us what you have spent per month for the entire season since you've installed geo or better yet how many KWHrs were used each month.

Past figures don't work--we had a 50 yr oil furnance and a water furnance.  We didn't live in the home other than visit every other weekend.  We moved in  and looked for a geothermal system.  The tay lor wood furnace was nice but not very environmental

 
Also, some systems are designed to run constantly during the coldest months. Mine will run 100% of the time when it drops below 27 degrees F. I was told about this before my system went up so was not surprised by the constant running. I was also told that my system will blow with less force out of the vents and at a much cooler feel than a traditional system. I'm not saying that your situation is the same, but some evaluation and understanding as to how your system was designed seems necessary

I hope mine isn't designed constantly below 27 degres.   My runs longer cycles then cuts off for a few minutes. I specifically asked about efficiences at colder temperatures and was assured that it was efficient.    I knew the system was not going to blow hot air, but I expected more than this vague kinda warm air. 

Does anyone know what the temp coming out of the vent should be.

Did anyone get a manual.  We were told that earthlined did not make a manual.  Didn't want the homeowner messing around with anything--just give the installer  call

Not knowing your cost/kw of electricity, your heat load, what you spent on energy before I don't know that $400 is high. In fact none of us do.
Are you able to provide any of that info?
joe

Trister,

Your system size doesn't sound terribly out of line. 15 years ago, a good rule of thumb for sizing HVAC systems was 500 SF/ton. Improved energy efficiency techniques, such as spray foam, have changed this. Based on the information you provided, your home comes in at 550 SF/ton of equipment. My home, for example, is just under 1,000 SF per ton. Given that you have spray foamed the foundation and the rafters, it would appear from a distance, at least, that you have offset the load created by the single pane windows. Of course, a properly completed Manual J would be the best choice to confirm this back of the napkin analysis because there are so many things that can impact the energy demands on a home, only part of which is the heating and cooling system.

Do you monitor the electricity usage of your geo system separately by chance? If not, you might want to consider getting a TED (www.theenergydetective.com). It only costs about $150 and I consider it a good investment to help me understand exactly what my geo system costs to operate. I live in North Texas and, historically, my Earthlinked system represents about 55% of my total electric bill. In the winter, it drops to 36% and in the summer it jumps to 67% of my total bill. Being in the southern part of the mid atlantic, I would guess your geo system would represent closer to my annual average of 55% but the main point is that your geo system is some portion of the $400 bill you received. Assuming for a moment 55% is a good number, the geo portion of a $400 electric bill would be $220 which is about 6 cents per SF to heat your home. We've had a blistering cold winter by North Texas standards this year and my geo cost 5 cents per SF in January and essentially, my home is an ice chest with windows and my house is so tight, I can flush the toilet by slamming the front door. For a winter that is 15 degrees colder than typical in your area, the $400 electric bill you received doesn't sound terribly out of line either.

I also think you got yourself a pretty good deal on your geo installation. Gross, you paid about $6,500 per ton and geo is selling for $9K to $10K per ton in North Texas. Take the 30% tax credit and your net cost per ton is $4,500 which sounds pretty good from this angle. I would certainly take that deal myself.

Having said all this, your home could, indeed, be using more electricity than it should be and it may even appear to be atrributed to the geothermal unit but be caused entirely by the wiring of the home. I am just now beginning to understand this and can't articulate as well as I would like, however, fundamental wiring is not the craft it used to be. I am not sure why but there appears to be a trend where electricians are not as strict as they used to be about keeping the ground and common wires separated. An errant connection can literally cause a home to pull electricity from the grid, dissipate the electricity to the ground and the home never gets the benefit of the juice, just the bill.

Earthlinked has an installation, operating and maintenance manual in a pdf format that's about 17 meg. Your dealer can download this from the Earthlinked web site for you. Homeowners can mess with their units with or without the manual so I don't see any reason to withhold this information. There is really not that much to an Earthlinked system anyway. Except for the patented refrigerant flow controls, all the parts can be bought off the shelf at an HVAC supply house. Other systems have computer circuit boards, TXVs and a variety of other brand specific parts that can only come from the manufacturer. That translates into expensive repairs if the system fails. The mechanical simplicity of the Earthlinked equipment is really the beauty of the design. All you really need to know is to change the filter when the thermostat tells you to.

I am an Earthlinked sales rep in North Texas so I am clearly biased but I think you made a good choice. You may have a few more tweaks to go through to get comfortable you are getting peak performance from the system but you are on the right path. I know I am thrilled with my system. I installed a 6kW solar array this past summer and have since had total electric bills as low as $7. That would not have been possible without my geothermal unit.

Hello Trister,

Temperature at the vent should be approximately 30F higher than return temp. That means if it's 65 in the space, supply vent temp will be approximately 95. Caution: This temp is below body temp and to many people feels cool. When DX is installed properly, you will see electric bills 50%-70% less than the equivalent cost for heating with fossil fuel - Regarding your home specifically; do you have a manual J? Your old house APPEARS (I can't be certain without seeing it) slightly undersized. I have a 3000 sq. ft 100 yr. old house and because of unavoidable heat loss costs much more to heat during brutally cold days. Have your contractor check how the T-stat is set up. You don't want e-heat before it's absolutely necessary.

Paul
www.TotalGreenIntl.com

We considered putting in a earthlinked system and got a quote from a contractor who specialized in them.  We also got a quote from a horizontal loop water based ground source contractor.  There was a huge difference in price, but the water based system contractor told us he had replaced non-performing earthlinked systems. The reason they were not performing as designed, he asserts, is that the earth/moisture around the pipes was freezing and expanding creating an actual air space around the copper tubes.  He claims this is not just a hypothetical scenario --he has dug the systems up and seen both the great amount of frozen earth around the pipes and the air gap created by a repeated freeze-thaw cycle that happens before the earth finally freezes solid around the pipe.  

While this seems like a plausible argument, it was price that determined our final choice.  We've put the money difference into super insulating our house.

I have not searched this site to see if others have had any experience to back up or refute this assertion, but I'm interested to hear any responses or a link to testing that has been done.

I have an Earthlinked system, installed 5 years ago. In my case, the boreholes were made in solid rock because I live on top of a hill of a specific type of geologic formation. So, I can't make any claims about its behavior with an dirt installation. However, I'm probably the only person who installed temperature sensors 50' down on each ground loop and put another in the ground near the loops to determine ground conduction and seasonal temperatures. My system works great, up to a point, and has continued to function at that level. There's been no indications of this type of loop-ground separation. However, here's the problem I see with the standard Earthlink installation... By default, they specify 100' of ground loop per ton. This is because the direct burial of copper affords greater heat conduction then plastic tubing for a normal water loop. From a heat conduction point, this is valid. However, you can conduct heat as fast as you want, but if you don't have enough ground loop, the ground temperature will drop too much, leaving you with a poorly performing heat pump as the season progresses. My loop temperature measurements verified this. Within a few weeks of early season runtime, the ground was frozen solid and wasn't recovering during the "off" cycles. I had predicted this before I purchased the system, so I ordered the version that uses 150' per ton so that there would be enough thermal ground mass. Unfortunately, my installer failed to deliver so I ended up with 100'/ton. They also installed the loops too close together, worsening the problem. This is no fault of the Earthlinked system itself however - it's on the installer's back, who later lost their license to install these systems. Do not trust anecdotal evidence from contractors. They undoubtedly have seen what they have, I don't question that. However, perhaps what your contractor saw was due to incompetent/inadequate installations from the Earthlinked installer in your area. For those considering Earthlinked, I highly recommend insisting on the 1.5 or 2.0 systems. That's 150' or 200' of ground loop per ton. The bores should be drilled no less than 12' apart in order to minimize ground loop thermal interference. While this is more expensive due to the additional drilling, it is necessary in most situations that don't have ample groundwater movement to carry away all that cold. Do not count on the installer to understand thermodynamics. No insult to the installers, it's just that most of them are highly skilled technicians, not engineers/scientists, so they don't fully appreciate the need for more ground loop. If you delve into it and read the papers on actual installations and measurements needed, you'll find that all research has shown that it is rare to have ground conditions that support running with less than 150' of bore per ton. ***this is true regardless of technology - Earthlinked or conventional water loop*** Most research recommends 200'/ton to avoid these issues. Unfortunately, installers violently fight this due to budget. The bore holes are the biggest cost of the installation in most areas, so if you double the drilling cost, it makes the system non-competitive. So that's an easy place to skimp and increase their own profits. The system works great until they are paid. Then the system starts non-performing. Maybe weeks later. Maybe months. But if used with long run cycles, it will non-perform eventually if inadequate borehole depth is used.

Good points.

Folks,
Without data, saying $400 is too much means nothing.
I'm reminded of my son commenting that his friend's truck gets better gas milage than mine because he doesn't have to fill it up every other day like I do. The obvious flaw is no discussion about the size of the gas tank, miles driven, load etc.
By the same token to say" X is too much" is meaningless without supporting heat loss, cost/kw, operating conditions, cost projections, regular household usage etc. Nor does a 25% reduction in the bill with the bales of straw stacked around indict the insulation without information on the weather et al.
Folks we really would like to help, but ya gotta give us something to work with.
In this case it appears that the OP's original installer was in and out of the geo biz in a short period of time. I think again it's possible that presentation/expectation are the biggest problem here. I simply can't tell without more info.
j

Just to clarify on a couple of things mentioned...

An EarthLinked system, if installed according to the Manufacturer's guidelines, will have a maximum of 90% run time. 90% run time will eventually have the ground temp at a certain point where the heat pump will only be able to extract "X" amount of BTUh from the ground.

EarthLinked system sizing and selection takes this into account. An EarthLinked system is not like an open-loop water system (not that anyone said it was) in that it is REQUIRED to have supplemental heat (where heating is the dominant load). The supplemental heat needs to be set up to give the EarthLinked system at least 10% off time. Just as a comparison, let's say 90% run time with a water-source heat pump lowers the temperature of the water loop to 17 deg. F. Then, because it has 90% run time, it stays at 17 deg. Looking at any heat pump's performance chart, we know how many BTUhs we'll see that unit deliver through its heat exchanger (assuming pumps are ok, heat exch. is clean, air flow is right, etc...) Anyway, the point is, there is a set amount of BTUh at 17 deg. loop temp that we'd expect to get. Nothing more, nothing less.

If I know I'll reach the 17 deg. (or 20 deg., or 35 deg. or whatever) we'd know what the minimum output of the heat pump should be. Loop design AND equipment sizing comes in to play on figuring out what that minimum loop temp. will be.

I guess what I'm getting at, is that with an EarthLinked system, even with the 100' per ton loop, if the system is undersized, and the supplemental heat doesn't give the undersized heat pump at least 10% off time, it hasn't been sized and installed according to the Manufacturer's guidelines. Some undersizing is completely ok, as long as the supplemental heat makes up the rest, and you don't have a home owner refusing to use the backup heat.

Anyway...the OP's original installer is still in the geo biz, just not with EarthLinked. It's unfortunate what has happened in so many instances of mis-applied, undersized, under-designed, and/or poorly installed geothermal systems, whether they're EarthLinked or any other brand/type of geothermal. (Our school district is ready to scrap the geo idea on any of their new buildings now, after having had problems because of design, short looped systems, and lack of any sort of backup heat on their original set ups.)

www.pinksdx.com

Tristers other half here. I have looked through the thread and have a couple questions for you. Dale Walker, EarthTap mentioned problems with the electrical system in general, specifically with the lost energy in poor wiring. How best would I check for this? I have a basic multimeter. Quick background, I have a new 200 amp service entrance and a separate 100 amp secondary running 2nd floor circuits. Ground and neutral are bonded in main per code and separated in second box. All new breakers and wiring being replaced room by room as I go. Some old wiring (some 50-60s and some knob & tube) still in place, but loads kept to a minimum. Out buildings cut from use due to extremely poor wiring. Using 12-2 and 12-3 for most replacement, but some 14 gauge for lighting circuits only.

Have two Honeywell TH8000 Thermostats for the Earthlinked DX systems. Someone mentioned that they could be set up incorrectly. Is there a way for me to check this? I am going to take some temp measurements at returns and supplies and post these soon.

Current usage from Jan 22 to Feb 19 is 2886 kWh for 28 days or 103 kWh per day. Cost per kWh is $0.0957. Short month measure. Ave temp was about 15 degrees cooler than normal with highs about 38 and lows about 20. Thermostats set to cycle between 65 (9 pm to 6 am), 67 (6 am to 10 am), 66 (10am to 6 pm), and 67 (6 pm to 9 pm). Second floor set at 65 night and 66 day.

Any testing suggestions appreciated. I am comfortable working with electicity and wiring and have no problem working from the manuals and code books that I have. I know when and where to keep my fingers away and if I am over my head and need someones help.

The ground loops were grouted as they went in. I watched and it appeared to me that the crew did a good job filling the bore holes. Not having buried sensors, is there any way that I could check to see if the ground is frozen around the loops? Also, someone mentioned the frozen ground pulling away from the loops. Would this be possible in this case where the bores were grouted? Thanks!

I passed along your post to someone who knows much more about this than I do for further clarification but you should first measure resistance on the ground.  It shouldn't be more than 25 ohms.  Another thing is to ensure the ground and neutrals are connected to separate buss bars in the panel and, after that is confirmed,  that there is no amperage on bare copper grounds.  Then, on the individual circuits, ensure the ground is not being used as a neutral and visa versa.

This question may have been answered somewhere in the post string and I missed it but is your current usage for the Earthlinked system by itself or the whole house?  

Regarding your question about the possibility of the ground freezing around you loops, I talked to Mike Dilling, an Earthlinked Sales Rep in northern Indiana outside of Chicago about this, who has installed 1,000 of these systems and he indicated he has only seen this situation a handful of times and it was always attributed to undersizing of the equipment for installs north of the Ohio river.  So, I don't have to worry about this in Texas and you may not have to be concerned with it in the southern mid-Atlantic area where you live. 

As I step up on my soap box, at the end of the day, a trouble free installation of any equipment will be 99.9% dependent on the skill sets and professionalism of the installer.  With over 100 million hours of service on it's equipment built up over the past 30 years, Earthlinked has documented very clearly what it takes for a trouble free installation.  All the dealer has to do is follow the instructions and sometimes they do not and, and when they don't, we have message threads like this one.  Same goes for water source geothermal.  Both systems work extremely well when installed right and they are both aggravating as hell when they don't.

So, while the subject header of this message thread says "Not Thrilled with Earthlinked Either", it might be more appropriate to say "Not Thrilled with my Installer Either" which begs the question "What should a homeowner considering a geothermal system do to protect themselves?"   In my opinion, the best defense for a homeowner is ACCA's Quality Installation checklist.  ACCA sets the standard for all heating and cooling equipment installations, including geothermal.  Make sure your installer follows that checklist to the letter and you will be toasty warm in the winter, nice and cool in the summer and saving money like I am.

Dale, excellent points.

The difficulty is, homeowners simply don't have the background to assess whether a quality job has been done. I'm a professional energy consultant, understand geo as well as anybody, checked with Earthlinked for a recommended installer and still ended up with a botched install. When I went back to the installer to make it right, they totally blew me off and letters from lawyers did no good either other than to waste another couple thousand.

I'm not indicting Earthlinked for this, clearly it was a disreputable installer. The point is that even a professional in the industry can get hosed. Earthlinked told me that this installer was one that they sent around the east coast to train others, so I really thought I was in the best of hands. Subsequently, I've been helping others to spec out the installation to ensure that the same mistakes aren't made again. As you noted, if the installers would just follow the manufacturers guidelines, we'd be in good shape.