lisa6801
New Member
Posts:63
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| 10 Mar 2010 08:33 PM |
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 Just for info as I am in the stage of pipe laying.
The 2006 IRC chapter 21, M2105.1 states- "TESTING: The assembled loop system shall be pressured tested with water at 100psi (690kPa) for 30 minutes with no observed leaks before connection (header) trenches are backfilled. Flow rates and pressure drops shall be compared to calculated values. If actual flow rate or pressure drop figures differ from calculated values by more than 10 percent, the problem shall be identified and corrected". It is important that you are aware and make sure your installers follow code, some inspectors are not even aware of this. Check it out yourself. Lisa 6801
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 10 Mar 2010 10:23 PM |
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I am a mechanical inspector (and geo installer). I am unaware of any municipality in my state that requires an actual water test though many want 100PSI air test.
You are correct that many inspectors are unaware of this part of the code though this is not unfortunate in my mind.
The installer has the largest stake in the loops integrity (repairs after backfill are expensive). Inspectors have little stake in this test (no safety issues).
Igshpa recommends tests with water because if a joint lets go it will be less violent. This test however creates issues in flushing and freeze protection for water guys and is absolutely harmful for DX.
Other concerns include expansion of HDPE which can interfere with soil or grout contact once loop contracts, also the length of time a trench might be open (often over night) to allow prescribed inspection that also wants header trench left open 'til water test is performed.
So as an inspector I suggest you go with local status quo. Again installer has more stake in a loops integrity.
Finally, I would suggest that the code has very little to do with a "great installation" or performance. If you use it as your measuring stick you are not likely to enjoy a terrific install.
Good Luck,
Joe |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
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waterpirate
Basic Member
Posts:467
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| 11 Mar 2010 06:04 AM |
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I just finished a 1/2 engineered 50 ton job. There was no spec for the geo other than "as typical " stamped on the three geo drawings that were provided. Near the end of the job the mechanical contractor pulled that out and I almost fell on the floor laughing.
1. normally specs exceed that requirement
2. inspector would not enter water filled ditches
3.hydrostatic for 30 min/ easy
This spec for a commercial or commercial lite project is far from adequate imho, and for this standard to be applied to a residential system will drive up price and local inspector should read number two. |
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| Eric Sackett<br>www.weberwelldrilling.com<br >Visit our Geothermal Resource Center! |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 11 Mar 2010 12:32 PM |
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Does 1/2 engineered 50 tons work out to 25 tons net? |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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waterpirate
Basic Member
Posts:467
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| 11 Mar 2010 06:49 PM |
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Posted By engineer on 11 Mar 2010 12:32 PM
Does 1/2 engineered 50 tons work out to 25 tons net? ROFLMAO!!!! 1/2 engineered equals the owner did not pay for full engineering in an effort to squeze the buck. I recieved the equivalant of something that was drawn on the back of a place matt at denny's after the owner bought the engineer dinner. "not exactly" |
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| Eric Sackett<br>www.weberwelldrilling.com<br >Visit our Geothermal Resource Center! |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 12 Mar 2010 07:46 AM |
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If you really want to educate your inspectors on something worthwhile go to the 06 IMC chapter 9; 918.3 or there abouts (I work with the Michigan Mechanical Code an amended IMC so number may not be exact)......which says loosely "the minimum unobstructed return air shall not be less than 6 square inches per thousand btuh...."
This applies to all heat pumps; air source is included.
IMHO this is where installer and inspector ignorance does the most harm.
Lisa, it's great that you are educating yourself on the process, just don't linger on inconsequential parts or you'll go batty. That same code book has framers in MI taking steps to protect dwellings from hurricanes.
j |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 12 Mar 2010 10:20 AM |
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Joe,
Do you interpret "unobstructed return air" to mean 'free area', that is the area of return grille faces multiplied by the reducing factor of the slats and/or bars on the face of the return grille(s)
There's a name for the factor and I can't think of it now... |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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lisa6801
New Member
Posts:63
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| 12 Mar 2010 05:58 PM |
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Joe appreciate your response. What I am facing is the inspector status quo. He has a regulation that specifically states water. If it is in the code book that is what he wants to go by. He also has a concern that the manifold lines are attached at the end so when water is running through that it will not be balanced between the four pipe connections (entyry/exit points). Write up:
“Reason Rejected: 1. Manufacture installation instructions must be provided for inspections.
2. Must see detail of manifold and entry to house. 3. Header lines must extend to where unit will be set.
Pressure test is a water test at 100psi IRC 2006 section M2105.1 Testing.”
Inspector wants manufacture specs on header fusing and connections. He is concerned if water entry is at one end as it is now, flow is not balanced.
My other concern is that the engtry lines are above grade (right now) going into house at a 45degrees right at the outside wall.
How can you ignore a written code-not that I agree with it as written but how can you get around it.
Lisa |
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lisa6801
New Member
Posts:63
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| 12 Mar 2010 06:05 PM |
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Joe, your comment at the end about hurricanes--I alraedy had that experience too! It took me 2 weeks and contacting Richmond (headquarters) and an engineer ($200.00) to prove that my bump out basement (bothsides) did not need to be reinforced. YES I had to fight the hurricane code.
Lisa |
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lisa6801
New Member
Posts:63
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| 12 Mar 2010 06:06 PM |
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Posted By lisa6801 on 12 Mar 2010 06:05 PM
Joe, your comment at the end about hurricanes--I already had that experience too! It took me 2 weeks and contacting Richmond (headquarters) and an engineer ($200.00) to prove that my bump out basement (bothsides) did not need to be reinforced. YES I had to fight the hurricane code.
Lisa |
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lisa6801
New Member
Posts:63
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| 12 Mar 2010 06:11 PM |
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Posted By lisa6801 on 12 Mar 2010 05:58 PM
Joe appreciate your response. What I am facing is the inspecto'sr status quo. He has a regulation that specifically states water. If it is in the code book that is what he wants to go by. He also has a concern that the manifold lines are attached at the end so when water is running through that it will not be balanced between the four pipe connections (entyry/exit points). Write up:
“Reason Rejected: 1. Manufacture installation instructions must be provided for inspections.
2. Must see detail of manifold and entry to house. 3. Header lines must extend to where unit will be set.
Pressure test is a water test at 100psi IRC 2006 section M2105.1 Testing.”
Inspector wants manufacture specs on header fusing and connections. He is concerned if water entry is at one end as it is now, flow is not balanced.
My other concern is that the entry house lines are above grade (right now) going into house at a 45degrees right at the outside wall.
How can you ignore a written code-not that I agree with it as written but how can you get around it. I was in the Air Force as a maintenance officer and very familar with tech data and sometimes the way it is written and the use of common sense does not go together. Why would this even been in the book at 100psi? Just my frustration now showing...............
Lisa |
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waterpirate
Basic Member
Posts:467
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| 12 Mar 2010 06:41 PM |
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Sorry I hijacked earlier, now how about a solution.
1. Inspector is requiring test to 100 psi with water?
Easily accomplished witha hydrostatic test pump and a liquid filled pressure gauge. If no hydrostatic test pump is available, you could sub a pressure washer. It will be slow but will achieve the result needed. I have the best results with presureing up the system to 150 ish for an hour and ignore gauge fall. after 1 hour crack valve to like 105 psi then start 30 min test.
2. If you are refering in your piping woes the use of a close header vs. reverse return, there is a picture of that in almost every unit mfg. big book that I have seen. Also IGSHPA may even trump mfg. recommended install, also close header.
Hope this helps |
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| Eric Sackett<br>www.weberwelldrilling.com<br >Visit our Geothermal Resource Center! |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 14 Mar 2010 10:37 PM |
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Lisa,
if inspector enforces manufacturer's installation instructions and code book, little you can do but comply.
Your contractor should have local relationships and work something out with building department. If you are your own contractor they will be more heavy handed.
Engineer, un obstructed would be the reduced opening size with deductions for grilles.
j |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 15 Mar 2010 08:41 AM |
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Thanks |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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