tray leak?
Last Post 03 Jul 2015 10:39 AM by joe.ami. 35 Replies.
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annjUser is Offline
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30 May 2011 08:06 AM
We have an Envision 5 ton Waterfurnace that has been in our home for about 5 years. We purchased the home 2 years ago and have continual headaches with this unit. We have added a second pump that should have been installed initially and also replaced our zone panel under warranty. Now with the cooling season underway, we seem to have water (condensation?) puddling outside the tray within the unit. Our contractor thought it was condensation being pulled off the coils by the blower so has sprayed the coils and now turned the medium and high settings on the blower speed down. Still having the problem. Has anyone else experienced this? I am wondering if the tray has a leak in it somewhere as the drain itself is not clogged. Thoughts? Thanks!
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31 May 2011 07:46 AM
1 problem in 5 years that was not caused by your installer and you consider that "continual headaches"?

Cold condensate collected could make the pan sweat. Other puddling can occur from condensation on refrigeration or loop piping.
Has this never happened before?
Has your installer previous geo experience?
j
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31 May 2011 10:06 AM
We think it is a continual headache when we have to call the the repairman every 3 months to diagnose some kind of problem. The previous home we were in had gas heat and a twice yearly inspection was all that was needed. The repairman has now been out here twice for this problem and it's still dripping. Our repairman (not the installer) sells and services Waterfurnace and is well thought of in our area. Yes, all problems so far seem a result of decisions made by the previous owner and their installer creating a headache for us! Last night when we opened the unit we had what I assume is condensation running off of the fan housing and dripping outside the drain pan. Last week when we noticed the leak we placed a towel beside the pan, and overnight it is always soaked. The moisture runs through the hole under the fan and soaks the insulation in the unit below that and eventually can be seen out on the floor. Carpet is nearby and it reaches that causing us great concern. We have never had this problem before. The basement had no carpet in it last summer so we would have really noticed the moisture on the cement floor.
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31 May 2011 10:44 AM
Ok.
Not trying to bust your chops on the headache thing, and I'm not a Waterfurnace dealer, but when people are frustrated they call out manufacturers when often it's installers or repairmen at fault.
If you have repeated visits with no part failures, design or technician competence are still suspect.

If you never had this moisture problem before, then fan speed wasn't a problem before. Therefore your technician will have to return because it won't be fixed. That's not because it's a WF Envision, that's because your technician is mistaken.

Don't know where your from, but lots of areas have had a lot more precipitation this year than usual.
Do you employ a dehumidifier in your basement? Is condensation forming on the exterior of the sheet metal?
Is your duct work insulated, does it pass through unconditioned spaces?

It really is common for components in the cabinet to sweat and occasionally puddle outside the cabinets. If you have unusually high moisture content in the air due to spring storms and have had weather like ours that has only permitted use of cooling units a few days so far I wouldn't be suprised to see water in place you don't normally.

Not saying something isn't wrong, but I would start with a dehumidifier and make sure your filter is clean. I would hope your drain pan isn't plugged after a technician has been by to look into water leaking.

j
Joe Hardin
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Bill NeukranzUser is Offline
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31 May 2011 11:29 AM
Here's a picture to help those not familiar with a WaterFurnace Envision.  The evap coil is on the right.  Supply air goes up for this particular Envision configuration.

The plastic tray referenced by the poster is at the bottom of the evap coil, and extends out to the left about 4 inches.

The hole referenced by the poster is half way between the front and back, and close to the left side.  It's about 1.5" diamater.  And water that exits through this hole is going to soak the insulation directly under the hole, before getting into the lower compartment that houses the compressor, TXV, drier-filter, coax exchanger, DSH exchanger, etc.

If blower fan speed is too slow, and if the deltaT across the evap coil is sizeable enough, then condensation will collect on the blower fan housing, drip to the floor of the compartment, exit the 1.5" hole, soak the insulation, drop to the floor of the lower compartment, and then eventually exit the unit.

If blower fan speed is too high, condensation will be sucked off the evap coil, drip to the floor of the compartment, with same result.

Best regards,

Bill

Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
joe.amiUser is Offline
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31 May 2011 12:19 PM
If a system is designed and installed correctly, condensate should not get pulled off the fan coil, nor would it start to exhibit this problem 5 years after installation.
j
Joe Hardin
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31 May 2011 04:05 PM
Thanks to the above poster for the correct picture. We as well as our contractor seem baffled by the problem. The contractor is waiting on Waterfurnace for information as to what might help. We have had significant rain this spring, but I am having a hard time buying that the humidity is suddenly so much higher that this is happening. Nothing has been changed with the system from a year ago other than adding an additional pump, but that was still during the cooling season. We have a brand new filter and have had the system serviced twice yearly since moving in. Line was purged upon moving in as there was lots of gurgling in the line. That has been gone for over a year and the zone board was replaced. That's it. I'd just like to have a year of not calling a service technician on it and had hoped this would be the season no calls were made. Question: Wouldn't any condensations leaking through the hole and into the bottom level damage some of those items below? Thanks for all your input.
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31 May 2011 04:19 PM
Posted By annj on 31 May 2011 04:05 PM
... Question: Wouldn't any condensations leaking through the hole and into the bottom level damage some of those items below? Thanks for all your input.


Yes, in my opinion.

My guess is the 1.5" hole in the bottom floor of the blower fan compartment is to provide some air flow cooling to the equipment below.  I doubt it was meant as an emergency water relief hole.

Your next step is to determine where the water, that's not going down the tray, is coming from.  There are 3 sources:

1. The tray is filling up due to a clogged drain line (and the 'tray full' water sensor is broken).  (My first guess)

2. The water is coming from condensation on the ECM motor.

3. The water is coming from the evap coil due to very high blower speed.

A skilled HVAC tech should easily be able to firgure out which of these 3 items is the problem.

Best regards,

Bill
Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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31 May 2011 04:34 PM
I do believe our techs are doing everything possible to solve the problem. But it is frustrating so thought I'd bounce off of you guys here. As to clogged drain.....water was poured into the pan and it drains out just fine. That was checked first. What would cause condensation on the ECM motor? Blower speed was at the lowest low and highest medium and highest high. Medium was reset at medium and high was lowered one notch. But....if we didn't have this problem last year, why would the speed of the blower be an issue this year? Thanks!
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31 May 2011 04:50 PM
Posted By a0128958 on 31 May 2011 04:19 PM
My guess is the 1.5" hole in the bottom floor of the blower fan compartment is to provide some air flow cooling to the equipment below.
After inspecting our unit, it appears to me that the drain line of the condensation tray would sit over that hole in a left hand return configuration (our return is left hand, and our hole is on the right side.)  The hole in the sheet metal may be just stamped out of the metal for both possible return configurations.

As a side question, what is that piece sticking up out of the tray?  A float sensor?  I didn't see a mechanism, but it was dark in there and I didn't have a flashlight handy.
Posted By a0128958 on 31 May 2011 04:19 PM
I doubt it was meant as an emergency water relief hole.
I agree.  Just some foil faced insulation below with the foil facing the lower section.
Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon.
Bill NeukranzUser is Offline
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31 May 2011 05:54 PM
Posted By annj on 31 May 2011 04:34 PM
... As to clogged drain.....water was poured into the pan and it drains out just fine.
... if we didn't have this problem last year, why would the speed of the blower be an issue this year?   


I'd check the drain again.  Many times there's plenty of pipe leading to where the obstruction is.  Multiple gallons may need to be poured down the drain before it can be seen that this is indeed the problem.

Most well qualified technicians will use a pressurized air system to 'blow through' the drain line as part of annual maintenance.  Over time, absent this maintenance, the drain line typically will clog after a few years.

My bet is on the drain line, because:

1. It's something that can change over time, without anything else specifically being changed.  I.e. it's why you didn't have the problem last year.

2. It's hard to imagine so much condensation coming off of the ECM to amount to a major leaking problem.

3. Same for sucking water off of the evap coil so hard to amount to a major leaking problem.

I would think you could check your unit every hour or two or a few times each day, especially on days with a high cooling demand.  The front cover is easy to momentarily remove (with the unit Off).  It should be pretty obvious where all of the water is coming from, I would think.

If it is the drain line, then the drip pan water sensor needs to be fixed.

Best regards,

Bill
Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
Bill NeukranzUser is Offline
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31 May 2011 05:58 PM
Posted By geome on 31 May 2011 04:50 PM

... the drain line of the condensation tray would sit over that hole in a left hand return configuration (our return is left hand, and our hole is on the right side.)  The hole in the sheet metal may be just stamped out of the metal for both possible return configurations.

As a side question, what is that piece sticking up out of the tray?  A float sensor?  I didn't see a mechanism, but it was dark in there and I didn't have a flashlight handy.

Sounds like a plausible theory to me.

It's a brown wire, attached with a spade lug to the drip pan, that goes to the electronics control board underneath the blower fan compartment.  It's supposed to sense water if it's present to a significant degree in the drip pan.

Best regards,

Bill
Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
joe.amiUser is Offline
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01 Jun 2011 07:46 AM
It is not a plugged drain.

Ann you asked for opinions, I asked you questions (none of which were answered).
I'll throw another two out there anyway.

With the repair of the zone board were any programming changes made?
Do you run the fan constantly or have it cycle on and off with the compressor?

You don't have to "buy" the extra humidity theory, but a dehumidifier in the basement would be nice.
I don't know the quality of your technician (though he seems to have gone down a dead end street already), or the information before us, nor do I have answers to specific questions, so speculation is the best I can offer.
j
Joe Hardin
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We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
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01 Jun 2011 09:29 AM
Hey, Joe, Thanks for all your input. I guess I did miss your questions above so will try to answer those the best I can. We do not have a dehumidifier in the basement. We do have a walkout and it does not appear to be exceptionally humid down there. By condensation on the sheet metal, I assume you mean the exterior of the furnace. The answer to that is no. All condensation appears on the exterior of the housing of the fan and then puddles next to the tray directly below that housing. We did not build the house so can't speak for all ductwork, but what flexible ductwork we could see before we completed the basement finish was indeed insulated. It does pass through some unconditioned spaces as we have a two story house so ductwork in the attic with upstairs ceiling vents. As for the zone panel...no settings were changed. And, we do not run the fan constantly. It cycles on and off with the system. Again, I appreciate all your input. My contractor is attempting to pretty much eliminate all the suggestions you guys have had. I'm hoping Waterfurnace will think of something else to try soon. It does feel like we are going down a dead end, but I think our contractor is trying everything he can think of.
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01 Jun 2011 09:40 AM
Posted By annj on 30 May 2011 08:06 AM
I am wondering if the tray has a leak in it somewhere as the drain itself is not clogged.
Can your tech turn off all power to the unit, temporarily plug the drain, and fill the tray with water to check for leaks?  Remind him to unplug the drain after the test is done. 

Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon.
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01 Jun 2011 04:05 PM
annj,

We are more than happy to look into your concerns. Could you please provide your model number, serial number, and the name of your installing contractor? If you do not wish to post this information publicly, you are more than welcome to send us a private message.

Thank you,

WaterFurnace, International, Inc.
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02 Jun 2011 11:47 AM
Waterfurnace, Sent you a PM. Thanks.
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03 Jun 2011 11:25 AM
annj,

Our technical support staff has been in contact with your contractor, and they have provided them with some suggestions in reference to your concerns. We would suggest you contact your contractor to discuss these suggestions.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.
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04 Jun 2011 01:00 AM
Could you share those suggestions?
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
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06 Jun 2011 09:45 AM
joe.ami,

We suggested that the contractor address the humidity issue by determining where the humidity is coming from. Like you, we also suggested that a dehumidifier be utilized to eliminate the excess humidity.

annj,

Has your contractor contacted you to discuss our suggestions?


WaterFurnace International, Inc.
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