tray leak?
Last Post 03 Jul 2015 10:39 AM by joe.ami. 35 Replies.
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annjUser is Offline
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06 Jun 2011 10:24 AM
Yes, my contractor did contact me. They are scheduled to come out on Thursday to see what else might work.
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14 Jun 2011 01:53 PM
Waterfurnace, Our contractor did come out to the house but I can't say they figured out any source of humidity. In fact, they told me the humdidity in our home was not really all that high! We did discuss the fact that our home has spray foam insulation on the exterior walls. They suggested we try setting the air at a constant temp. Did so at 75 and have the fan running continuously. Today it is 73 out. Appears the air has come on briefly and there is an enormous amount of water sitting beside the tray. Drain is definitely not plugged to the tray and tray was dry. We don't understand. We have not had this issue before. Only thing that has changed is a new zone board was put on this past winter and a second pump was added as both you and the contractor determined that should have been done by the original installer for the previous owner. We are growing weary at the time it is taking to figure out and resolve this issue. Was suggested we might want to install a whole house dehumidifier that would be expensive. But given that we have not had the issue before and are told the humidity level in the house is fine, why would we expect that to change anything? More suggestions? Thanks!
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15 Jun 2011 08:45 AM
I do not recommend running the fan constantly. When compressor shuts off, any condensate left on coil will be re-evaporated into the air.
Before you buy a whole house dehumidifier, you can try lower AC settings.
What is the humidity level in the house?
J
Joe Hardin
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17 Jun 2011 09:07 AM
annj,

Your dealer has informed us that your unit is operating to manufacturer’s specifications.  In order to verify this, we have asked them to fill out a troubleshooting form.  As soon as we receive this form, we will review and respond.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.
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17 Jun 2011 11:08 AM
If that is the case, then why is the problem not solved? Is there someone else in the area that you recommend for a second look? We still have water puddling and the dealer told us the humidity in the house was really OK. If that is the case, why today did we get an estimate on a dehumdifier for almost $3000 with a letter stating that it is something we MIGHT need. That sounds like we are being asked to spend a large amount of money on something that MIGHT not work. How can we identify the problem?!! I will not have computer access for the next week but will check back in here and by phone when I return.
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17 Jun 2011 12:45 PM
annj,

Before you spend thousands of dollars unnecessarily, we would like to verify that your WaterFurnace unit is operating to manufacturer’s specifications.
 
WaterFurnace International, Inc.
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22 Jul 2011 08:43 PM
Just wanted to add some closure to this post. Both our contractor and a Water Furnace rep came out to look at our problem again. This time it was determined that the coil was leaking inside the unit. This was replaced(all under warranty) along with the tray (discovered a crack during replacement) and all seems to be great now. I thank Water Furnace very much for their prompt response in helping us solve this issue!
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25 Jul 2011 10:24 AM
Ann,
thanks for the follow up.
it's nice of you to offer praise where so many submit criticism with no follow up.
J
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
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25 Jun 2015 08:06 PM

I did a quick search on Google to see if I could find someone who had the same problem we are having and I found this post. This is almost exactly what is happening to us. We have a 6 ton Waterfurnace Envision and about a year ago I came down to a flooded basement (a puddle of water about 8 feet wide). We called the contractor in our area that was listed on Waterfurnace's site and he came out and said the coil needed to be replaced. Between diagnosing, ordering the part, getting the part and installation it took several weeks and I continued to mop daily. Waterfurnace sent the coil out right away and it was covered under warranty and we assumed all was well.
Almost two weeks ago I walked into the basement and found that it was doing the same thing again. I cleaned it up and called Waterfurnace to make sure we were still under warranty and then called the contractor but he is now so busy (I gave him an awesome review) that he wouldn't be able to come out for at least a month. So I started calling all of the contractors that Waterfurnace had listed and they kept telling me they were either too busy or I was too far away. I contacted Steve at Waterfurnace and was telling him that I was having difficulty finding someone to come out when one of the contractors took pity on me and called me back and said that even though it was a very long trip for them that they could come out in two days. Steve at Waterfurnace told me that's great but if you need anything else don't hesitate to call.
A very professional tech came out and spent nearly 3 hours trying to figure out why it was leaking again. We had very high humidity for the last several days (exterior of windows even fogging up) so it seemed to be a condensation issue but there were no leaks in the pan or line yet water was building up in the bottom of the unit and then leaking out onto the floor. The tech said the bottom of the unit was even rusting. In case it was an air flow problem causing the water to be blown from the coil and missing the pan, he turned the fan down and he also rerouted the drain pipe. They asked me to call them the next day to let them know if anything had changed.
The next morning there was water in the floor again. I called them and let them know and we discussed options but without numerous trips to my house to diagnose the problem he thought it would be best to call Steve at Waterfurnace and get their advice on what to do and make sure they would cover it under warranty. I also called Steve back and told him what was happening and asked if they could help. At this point things seemed to be going pretty good.
Several days later I was told I should call Consumer Support so I called and I spoke with Nicole (this is when things started going side ways) who said they would replace the cracked drain pan but not pay for the labor. I explained that it wasn't the drain pan because blue coloring was placed in it and the water on the floor was clear. There were also comments about the air being unconditioned but the unit sits in our basement and there is no outside air coming into the system so I also explained that to her. She also made comments that the last repair may have caused the problem but I explained that I had the same problem before the last repair so I couldn't see how that tech could have caused it. I also gave her my emai address at this point because I was starting to get upset at their lack of communication.
We then communicated by email and these are the emails:
""Mrs. Malone,
We have been in contact with Chris xxxxxx and he has described the issue to us. We are hoping you can provide us with a little more information in order for us to get to a resolution.
Can you take some pictures of the unit (stand back from the unit and get a picture of the whole unit) and maybe from a couple different angles if you can? We have a couple pictures of the inside, but we want to see the unit and how it is sitting in your basement.
Thank you in advance.
Sincerely,
Nicole Dodane
Consumer Relations Coordinator
WaterFurnace International, Inc.

Nicole,
I'm not sure why you need pictures but I took 4 and I've attached them. As we discussed earlier, it is not a crack in the drip pan like you were told by Steve nor is it from unconditioned air since all of our equipment is in the mechanical room in the basement and no air is coming from the outside. Unfortunately, it seems you were misinformed by your people on pretty much everything from what I can tell.
You can see the water from condensation is starting to pool again on both sides after I had already cleaned it up earlier. I've also been running a fan the last several days that is pointed down towards the floor to help keep it dry but it only dries out the residual left from mopping or vacuuming and does nothing to prevent the pooling of water. The pools/puddles can cover a very large space overnight and average about 3'-6' across. This is what was happening before the last repair too except the puddles seemed to be larger before. The amount of water also depends on the amount of condensation and that is dependent on the temperatures. If there is no condensation, there's no water.
Again, we firmly believe this is a warranty issue. How can it be the fault of the person who repaired it since it was doing this previously. His repair did seem to decrease the volume of the leak and the coils wouldn't hold a nitrogen charge so they were obviously leaking and had to be replaced (the trouble light also went out) but it seems that didn't fix all of our problem but without condensation being present because of the change in temperatures and humidity during the lengthy time it took to diagnose, order parts, get the parts and repair it, the condensation was no longer present after the repair. Now with the condensation the water problem is back.
I already slipped in the water and did a face plant on the concrete breaking my nose and bleeding profusely the last time the condensation caused the basement to flood. I had to mop it up daily back then until the condensation stopped leaking, then the coils were replaced and we assumed all was well. I'm now having to clean the water up again on a daily basis and as soon as the temperature and humidity changes it will stop again. This needs to be taken care of before the weather changes again. The technician who came out showed me where it is causing rust in the bottom of the unit because it has been an ongoing intermittent problem. Since the cabinet is now rusting, even if you were to fix the problem, it will continue to rust which will cause major problems in the future. Both myself and Chris at xxxx feel the best resolution at this point is to replace the unit under warranty. Any other solution would be a band aid for an intermittent problem that nobody seems to be able to diagnose with any degree of certainty and would do nothing to address the rust issue that will only continue to get worse.
This matter needs to be resolved quickly since it has now been over a week since we noticed it was leaking yet again. Frankly I'm tired of cleaning up the mess and it is a hazard (I already broke my nose because of this).
Please let me know what Water Furnace plans to do to make this right.
Thanks,
Cindy

Ms. Malone,
We have been in contact with Chris at xxxx and have given him our suggestion for a resolution. We have asked him to contact you to discuss this information.
Sincerely,
Nicole Dodane
Consumer Relations Coordinator
WaterFurnace International, Inc.

Nicole,
I contacted Chris at xxxx and he said he knows of no resolution and further more he hasn't even spoken to anyone at WF today. I forwarded him your email and he is going to contact you. Could you also call me at xxx-xxx-xxxx.
Cindy

Mrs. Malone,
We sent the email to Chris. We do not expect our contractors to answer emails within an hour. We do not believe that it is unreasonable to give the contractor the day to get his email and respond. This is why we stated that he would be contacting you.
Sincerely,
Nicole Dodane
Consumer Relations Coordinator
WaterFurnace International, Inc.

Nicole,
Sorry, your email sounded like you had spoken to Chris. When I read it to him he also got the same impression and we were both very confused. This makes a lot more sense. Could you please CC or forward me the suggestion for a resolution also.
Thanks,
Cindy

Ms. Malone,
The unit is condensating because the insulation inside the unit has been removed. The unit needs to be insulated to resolve this issue. We will provide the insulation to your contractor. The labor to install it will be between you and your contractor.
Sincerely,
Nicole Dodane
Consumer Relations Coordinator
WaterFurnace International, Inc.

Nicole,
The piece of insulation that you're talking about was in place when this problem first appeared. It became saturated because of the excessive condensation and was coming off which caused it to interfere with the operation of the unit so the repairman had to remove it. I think he told me at the time that since our unit was in an air conditioned space that it shouldn't make too much of a difference but it sure was causing problems flapping around so it had to come out.
So, I don't think there is any way this would fix the problem.
Cindy

Mrs. Malone,
Since you are not the original homeowner, we do not know what the original homeowner had done to this unit. We also do not know why we were not informed of this condensation issue at the installation of the unit. The insulation needs to be put back into the unit. The contractor that took it out should have replaced it, and you may want to talk to them about this.
We build thousands of these units and if it were a manufacturing issue, we would have had other homeowners with the same issue. However, we do not. Therefore, we suggest you work with your contractor to resolve this issue. If they need our assistance, please ask them to contact our Technical Support Staff. We will be more than happy to work with them.
Sincerely,
Nicole Dodane
Consumer Relations Coordinator
WaterFurnace International, Inc.

Nicole,
The original owners were Tim and Janet and I would be happy to put you in contact with them if you'd like to talk to them. They are currently on vacation and we are dog sitting for them so I can let you know when they get back. I've talked to Tim in the past about the heat pump and I can assure you that they haven't done anything to it. They are very nice people and we became good friends after we bought the house. Besides, the warranty says that it covers the Original Owner for 10 years and Subsequent Owner for the Balance of 10 years so I'm not sure why you would say, "Since you are not the original homeowner, we do not know what the original homeowner had done to this unit."
I understand that you make a lot of these but warranties wouldn't be necessary if companies never had a unique problem. I wish we knew what the problem with the unit was but we don't and that is why we are relying on you, the experts, to diagnose and fix this. I'm only trying to help you diagnose the problem by providing you with information and feedback that seems relevant so you don't waste your time, XXX's time and my time on repairs that won't help. If I hadn't been trying to help, you would have already tried to replace the drain pan that wasn't faulty because of miscommunication and all I was trying to do is explain that I don't believe the insulation is the problem and tried to explain why. You weren't informed of the condensation problem when it was installed because it wasn't a problem then and we informed you as soon as we knew. I agree that the insulation should be put back but the insulation coming off was caused by the condensation and not the cause of the condensation.
If your experts can't figure out what the problem is, then I'm not sure how one of your factory authorized service people are supposed to figure it out. I'm not even sure I could afford to pay them to do this.
We really need you to find a solution to for this.
Thank you,
Cindy

Ms. Malone,
We do not authorize any contractor to perform work on our equipment. We have informed you what needs to be done to resolve this. There is nothing more we can do.
Sincerely,
Nicole Dodane
Consumer Relations Coordinator
WaterFurnace International, Inc.""

So I'm not sure what to do here. The contractor Chris told me, "I have as well spoken to Nichole and let her know that we do not agree that this will fix the issue and with that being the case we would not be doing this work if this was what Water Furnace and you was to agree on being done." Of course, I don't agree so what's a girl to do?
I know this has been a very long winded post to say the least but guys I need help. Does anyone have any suggestions. Is it possible that it is the coil again like this guy? The first tech who replaced it actually told me that he had heard of techs replacing the coils and the new ones were also bad, said he heard that a a guy had to change them out 3 times once. If it were the coils again, how would I know?
On another repair forum someone posted this problem and someone suggested that they try using a cheaper filter because the more expensive filters can cause increased air flow and cause the condensation to be blown off the coil. I guess it kind of makes sense, I studied Physics so I understand Bernoulli's principle but could it really make that much of a difference and be that simple?
I'm open to any suggestions or advice please.
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27 Jun 2015 09:29 AM
acoral,
the cliffs notes next time are highly encouraged
Follow their prescribed fix and then go back if it doesn't work.
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
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27 Jun 2015 09:37 AM
Please note that Water Furnace did send a rep out along with our contractor and at that time the problem was resolved. However, had we followed the recommendations as we went along, we would have spent thousands of dollars on a whole house dehumidifier that was definitely not needed!!
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27 Jun 2015 10:49 AM
fair point annj, however in this case mfr is trying to bring things to spec (or rule things out) which is different than suggesting an additional appliace. Is it probably not going to work?....
Dunno, I don't know what they are thinking or seeing that I'm not. However cabinet insulation isn't a bad thing, and if you want their advice you can't always cherry pick.
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
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27 Jun 2015 12:34 PM
I'm so sorry, the insulation was replaced and it still leaked. I was just trying to convey to Nicole that I didn't think it would fix it since the problem started before it was removed. We even tried placing temporary additional insulation on the exterior of the cabinet to see if that might help, still leaked. My concern has always been that the longer it takes to troubleshoot, the weather will change and the leak will go away again which makes this intermittent problem almost impossible to diagnose. Out warranty will expire in a little over a year so we don't have a huge window of opportunity.

Since then, we increased the temperature on the thermostats and the weather has gradually been improving. Before some of the windows were even fogging up on the outside because of the humidity but now they aren't. It's still leaking but not nearly as bad. About a one foot puddle on either side of the cabinet and of course the water in the bottom of the cabinet. I just vacuumed it all up again this morning.

It was also suggested by someone else that we try using a cheaper filter because the better filters can impede the air flow and cause the water to be blown off the coil missing the drain pan so we tried that but it didn't seem to make a difference either.

I know annj's turned out to be the coil. Do any of you think it might be the coil again? If so, how would we know?

Thank you so much for your help and comments,
Cindy
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28 Jun 2015 11:52 AM

It was asked on another board where I live and what temps I normally set the thermostats too and it seemed like it could be very useful info so I'm going to post my response here too.

We live in SW Missouri and we have 4 zones. The 2 main areas are usually set at about 68. We like our Master Bedroom cool so it's usually at about 65. The basement stays a constant 63-66 all year round so that zone really never runs because our house is concrete and steel construction so even though the basement is a walkout and has a very wide open stairway going to the upstairs, the fact that it is surrounded by concrete on the top and sides keeps it very cool. The house does have very high ceilings and is a one story with an open loft and spray foam insulation.

Our Geothermal system actually allows us to set our thermostats at a temperature that is comfortable for us without breaking the bank. We have a 6 ton unit for a home that is between 6-7k sq. ft. and our electric bill is rarely over $300, the last couple of months I know it's been less than $200. I actually love it when it's not leaking :-)

Thank so much for the help guys,
Cindy
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30 Jun 2015 09:57 AM
Those are awfully aggressively low cooling setpoints. Code in most places is to design for 75*F cooling setpoint. Most systems operate on a 20*F split, so a 65*F setpoint / return air temperature puts 45*F degree air in air handler and ducts. If the basement is at all humid - dewpoint 55-60 or higher, puddling / ponding wouldn't surprise me.

Most AC guys don't "get" building science / infiltration / humidity / dewpoint issues to the extent necessary to suss out issues like this, so I'm not suprised at the lengthy diagnostic / analysis effort on this one.

Does this system incorporate a return bypass? That's fairly common with multizone systems. If so, it may operate to further depress temperatures in the AHU and supply plenum, further increasing condensation.

If even half of what I suspect is true, this one has nothing to do with WF equipment, it's all about sizing, zoning, design, installation and operation.

Curt Kinder <br><br>

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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03 Jul 2015 10:39 AM
Yes this is the first I heard about zoning. This is where many companies goof it up. Yes need to know if there is a by pass, dump or bleed settings. It may be that trying to push enough tonnage through your ducts with some of the zones closed is causing this.
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
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