<!--[if gte mso 9]> Normal 0 false false false EN-US X-NONE AR-SA There was a thread titled this a few months ago that the mods sticked it at the top but it got derailed by me and someone else discussing ‘Unions’ involving contractors. So….please no talk about unions on this thread. I hope the mods will sticky this at the top because soooo many people come to this great web site seeking answers and a lot of the questions are on why geo costs so much. 

I did a brief search and came up with these 4 web sites that sell geo units in a kit form. These prices seem very reasonable for the parts needed.  Obviously these kits do not include any duct parts, just the geo units, piping, manifold, thermostat, etc.  I found these on the first 2 pages of the search.  What do the folks on here know about these brand names? Good…Bad ?? I would think in these days that a lot of parts are actually made from just a few companies that provide the part to the different geo companies?

http://acunitsdirect.com/geothermal-heat-pump.html

http://ingramswaterandair.com/geothermal-with-install-package-horizontal-ground-loop-c-45_82_347_432.html

http://www.geoonline.net/

http://www.geothermalheaters.com/

I built a spec  house 3 ½  yrs ago that had a 4 ton and a 2 ton units Trane SEER 16 air to air.  The house was 3850sf. The TOTAL cost was just under 12 grand and included all ducting and ducting for 4 bathrooms.

It just really PO’S me to see quotes on here over the last 4 yrs in the 40-85 GRAND for less tonnage than I had installed for LESS than 12 grand. I know geo has a much higher SEER rating than air to air units and that will make the units more expensive.

I’ve read numerous times here that the unit is usually not at fault when a problem comes up, and the  emphasis is on the actual installation of the system.

For the life of me I can’t figure out why folks are being quoted very very large numbers. IMO only, I think the contractors are vastly ballooning the quotes because  ‘it’s new’, ‘it’s green’, ‘rebates involved’, ‘very little competition  ’  but it does save on elect.

Is there anything different in the ducting for geo than air to air? I haven't read anything on here where it is different.

The main difference I can see off hand is obviously the horizontal piping or wells or ponds. If you needed a  4 ton system that would require approx 3200’ of slinkies in the ground. Lets say the HVAC contractor hires a guy with a back hoe for $400/day to dig the trenches and it takes 2 days to do that. Then he pays 2 guys on his staff $200/day each for one day to lay out the slinkies. Then have the back hoe guy come back and fill in the trenches for 2 days(I would think he could do that in one day, but to be safe). So the HVAC contractor pays $1600 bucks for the back hoe operator and then doubles that price to figure out a quote to the home owner which is normal. So total labor to install slinkies is approx. $2000 plus around $2500 for the cost of the slinkies. So a total of approx $4500 for the ground work. Of course wells would be higher.  Everything now is above ground just like an air to air heat pump.

I do know that the ground loop has to be flushed and the pump needs to be installed and the desuper needs to be installed.

What I’m I missing on why folks continually get quotes from 40-80 GRAND??????????

I'm not sure what the purpose of this (rant??) is other than to turn people off of geo who are reading this forum. In my case, the quote and installed price of my 3 ton geo system was no where near the price you mentioned. I have pretty much done everything myself all my life including all my home remodelling jobs, but I had no interest in even attempting a self installed geo system. Why? Because I wanted it to just work. Sure, I could have probably bought the parts cheaper, hired a backhoe guy with a machine that was too small for the job, and got a system in that I'd have to troubleshoot for it's lifetime, but why? The price really didn't matter as it will pay for it's cost in oil savings in less than 7 years. The guy who installed my system is an engineer, and did all the heating load calcs and sized the system to fit our needs, and guaranteed me a working system. He deserves to make a living, and I never felt ripped off.

There is usually allways a reason why thins cost what they cost. A internet forum does not ever disclose all the details about a specific project that may have God awfull engineering, location, ect. If you are not happy with the price you get quoted, shop around, do your homework and you will soon seperate the wheat from the chaff.
Eric

I don't think robinnc is merely ranting, because when I looked into geo I got similar wild numbers. I take his post as a lament that such a great technology should be kept from a larger market due to its huge upfront costs. And if those huge costs are not real, then it's especially shameful that somebody is trying to take advantage of homeowners interested in a relatively unknown (in some parts of the world) green technology.

RobinNC, those links you quoted do not have NEARLY enough pipe to be able to install a closed loop system. While you may have a unit and "some" pipe, you only have about half the materials needed. I just put in a 4 ton system with more than 4 times that much pipe. Like you said there is also ducting costs, electric costs, thermostat costs, heating element costs. Does that unit come with a desuperheater, does it come with a storage tank, who is plumbing it in, how will that be done, what about permits, what about excavation, the days of labor for installation. Do you have a flush and fill cart to flush your loop? Those are $1,500 to $2,000, you will also need 5-15 gallons of methanol, know how much that is per gallon? Don't forget your heat fusion kit, that is another $700. The McQuay kit is only a single stage not a two stage, it has a PSC motor not an ECM motor... Should I continue?

I guess if your ranting I am going to as well. I have installed systems and have been doing HVAC my whole life and you will probably end up with more than double the cost shown on that site for a self install once you find out what else you will need. Then there is the VERY HIGH likely hood of problems and not getting rated efficiencies. The site claims up to 4.4 COP, well thats for an open loop, if your closed loop maybe 4.1 COP, now put in a small loop that is not properly done(without lots of training you will install yours wrong) and your getting maybe a 3.0 COP.

Good Luck! Call me when you need the system reinstalled or fixed, just don't expect me to warranty it, you will cover that warranty too.

Maybe it was a little harsh for me to suggest it was a rant, maybe not, and I can relate to a frustration with getting quotes that seem unrealistic.  I did get a couple of quotes for my system, and went with the installer who I felt was the best for me.  Both quotes were similar, so I felt comfortable that they were representative of what a system would cost me.  At that point it doesn't really matter what the price is.  It is.  It just matters whether I can justify the cost in my circumstance.  If cost is everything, and the system pays itself back in a reasonable amount of time, it's really a no-brainer, isn't it?  I mean, you're going to spend the money on fuel anyway over that period of time.  But what's unrealistic as far as a quote goes?  The market's going to determine that.  I'm sure there's good money to be made in geo installations for a good installer.  There should be.  There's good money to be made in black-topping, but a black top driveway won't pay itself back over time, and how many people complain about the price and decide to do their own black-top driveways?  You need the equipment and expertise to make it come out right.  That's worth a lot.

I take his post as a lament that such a great technology should be kept from a larger market due to its huge upfront costs

Exactly. I second that.

I sent out dozens of RFQs on a few different geothermal systems and most of them came back ....guess what....about 30% high. Go figure.

Sorry...I guess I did come off as a rant. I've been on here for over 4 yrs and STILL don't see why homeowners are being quoted these astronomical installs for geo. I knew I was gonna PO'ed some of the HVAC geo contractors on here with my post. Some noted how much their equiptment costs. That equiptment is used in every one of your installs and it is written off to reduce your taxes. You wouldn't be in business without it. Why don't you include your 30 grand pickup.
It doesn't cost 10 grand to dig trenches!!!
What is the difference in cost of a 4ton air to air with a 4 ton geo unit??? Somewhere around 25%? Just the unit themselves.
I had to have my HVAC replaced 4 yrs ago. The new unit was a 2 1/2 ton Trane 14 SEER. It costs me $4200 total. It took 2 guys about 5 hrs to replace it. They are one of the best in town and not the cheapest.
I know geo is gonna have extra costs associated with more elect and plumbing. But NOT that much!!  A desuper is gonna run around $800 which of course is extra with geo.
Nobody said if the duct work for both systems are the same??
Correct me if I'm wrong....the ducting would cost the same as air to air.....the units themselves would add approx 25%......a few extra hundred for both elects and plumbing.....$800 for desuper....plus whatever you need to put the pipe in the ground either horizontal or wells.
Where are these 10 of thousands of dollars coming from in these quotes I see on here ALL of the time?????????
Please explain in detail if you can. Ex....you need to install slinkies in a trench for a 4 ton unit. How much would this increase quote just for this alone and you assume there are no large boulders in the area just dirt.

Rob,

You seem to be implying that geo contractors have huge markups and profits ("10 of thousands of dollars" ) built in to geo jobs.  This simply is not true.   With so many contractors out of work across the country if there was
that much money to be made every one would be doing it and prices would fall and then a bunch of them would go out of business.

There might be a few places where contractors are few and demand is high that prices are higher than they should be, but it won't be that way for long.

Just because you see a quote on this board for "85 grand"   does not mean that the guy took that price or that the price was too high.  

We have done jobs for $15,000 and jobs for  $115,000.   By your reasoning we probably made $100,000 on the bigger job.  Not so,  we actually barely broke even with all of the problems that we had to deal with.

There are plenty of price quotes on this board in the $20,000 to $30,000 range as well as the 85 grand that you talk about.

Tools and trucks are a necessary part of the business and the  money to pay for them is built into every job.

The pros on this board can't explain why a quote is higher than you think it should be.   We have no knowledge of what the job requires.

I can tell you one thing for sure:   If I put and extra $10,000 in my next bid,  I would loose the job to one of my competitors.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 23 Nov 2011 06:54 PM

I sent out dozens of RFQs on a few different geothermal systems and most of them came back ....guess what....about 30% high. Go figure.

If "most of them" came back the same, that would represent the going rate for the work in your area. That you find it "high" or somebody low-balled doesn't change that. As always someone who finds the going rate objectionable is free to keep shopping or purchase something else.

Rob,
If you choose to start this topic again, why do it on the mis-representation that 40-80 grand is the common quote.
Most in my area are $25,000 or less. Many of my jobs are less than $20,000 and I am not the least expensive guy around.
If I were to rant (and we all know I have) I would probably complain about someone who picks the exception to suggest a norm.

I would suggest the 12 grand for 6 tons you paid 3.5 years ago would be low most anywhere. If that outfit happened to do geo, I don't think they'd charge you 40-80k.

Finally selective and biased disection of any craft, trade or even hourly/salaried wages, always neglects to consider all contributors. A painted protrait of my children 10 years ago was well over $1,000 and all I really got was a little paint and a piece of canvass...............

Posted By joe.ami on 24 Nov 2011 02:01 PM 

 A painted protrait of my children 10 years ago was well over $1,000 and all I really got was a little paint and a piece of canvass...............

Now thats Funny!

That makes all my equipment rusty steel and grease?

Eric

If "most of them" came back the same, that would represent the going rate for the work in your area

Nope, sorry. "Most" of them wanted to come down when they found out there were other bidders. Or other little tricks like "recalculating" the heat load, coming down a 1/2 ton and dropping the price $13,000. One huge profit job keeps the office open better than 3 or 4 regular jobs, so they can afford to "fish" like that. Many of them were surprised and irritated to find out there were other bidders, even though it was clear the RFQ was set up for circulation.

I belong to a select group of people who know the value of everything and the price of nothing. My conclusion is that for a number of reasons, people just don't shop around too well for geo and the installers know it.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 24 Nov 2011 04:42 PM

If "most of them" came back the same, that would represent the going rate for the work in your area

Nope, sorry. "Most" of them wanted to come down when they found out there were other bidders. Or other little tricks like "recalculating" the heat load, coming down a 1/2 ton and dropping the price $13,000. One huge profit job keeps the office open better than 3 or 4 regular jobs, so they can afford to "fish" like that. Many of them were surprised and irritated to find out there were other bidders, even though it was clear the RFQ was set up for circulation.

I belong to a select group of people who know the value of everything and the price of nothing. My conclusion is that for a number of reasons, people just don't shop around too well for geo and the installers know it.

Again an exception to suggest a nationwide norm of price gouging? Or did "several" drop the price 5 figures? On my average geo install $13,000 would be more than 4 times the money left after equipment is paid for and subs are paid (electrician, loop installer etc.).

Apparently you live in a cut throat community, I'm sorry, but why do you continue to believe it is true everywhere. The pros here have cited case after case of far smaller margins and prices.

One example of a someone who paid less than I would have charged:

A heat pump I'm replacing now is a brand with a rep for problems, electrical to the home had insulation melted off as of course no permit was pulled nor was an electrician employed. Selection makes sense as most other brands require at least a modicom of training or certification. 
Since they purchased the system they had to install a drain to the pond instead of dumping in the septic system. They had to upgrade electrical service to house. Fan coil had to be replaced as well due to installer screw-up. We also had to install solenoids and regulate flow as system simply opened up to full household water flow through 1" copper, regardless of operating stage or gpm requirement. The unit now a mess, 5 years later from undersized ducts, brown-outs and most recently a storm surge (which by the way might still be covered by warranty if dealer took time to register product). It will be replaced by one that is not twice required size, that fits the duct work, costs less to run, is quieter, is protected against surge and brown-outs etc. It is costing them more than the original installation, but thousands less than the original install with pricey repairs.
 
Why not go after original installer? Out of business of course. Low pricing and incompetance took its toll.

Another recent repair call is a system with a bad coax that mixed water and R22 killing compressor. Customer informed me that budget could cover heat pump but not flush of closed loop system. Will refrigerant harm new heat pump? Probably not.  Will two pump flow center get harmed if refrigerant gas pocket or oil sludge is introduced to pumps? Might freeze protection be comprimised? I think so at which point further repairs will be required as well as flush possibly adding another $1,000 or more to the job. Someone will take her money......and I will simply have been "too expensive".

How many bids did you recieve? What is "several"? I could cite many more examples of customers who didn't pay enough than your hand full of examples of "gougers".

Nobody is forced to buy geo, but in my kneck of the woods, with a typical home, if they are on propane or fuel oil and have reasonable electrical rates, they are going to easily spend more than $13,000 too much in just a few years. Again, most of these systems in my kneck of the woods would be less than $20,000 and some less than $10,000.

geodean and joe....the prices you are saying you quote seem very reasonable. Do you have much competition in your areas? I think I've only seen a quote on here from a customer in the 20 grand range....maybe once or twice in over 4yrs for small installs in the 2-21/2 ton range.!! Why are so many contractors quoting these astronomical prices that people post here? I still feel a large part of the equation in alot of the country is the ...it's new...it's green...rebates are involved...etc....are involved with quoting of prices. I think it might be too temping with so little competition in alot of areas, especially areas that use alot of oil to heat with.  I think geo is great and it needs aloooot more competition to get everyone on board for the future.
Can anybody answer the questions I posted?

Or did "several" drop the price 5 figures?

Quite a few actually. When they found that they weren't competitive, they wanted another shot at it. Which, we gave them. About a quarter were angry that we had competitive bids in the first place. Like we didn't "trust" them or something. Did you know it costs them time and money to make a bid and they wouldn't have done it in the first place if they had known that we would give the work to low bidder? After all, they are real professionals unlike those low-bid "hacks". They were usually the few who didn't want to check their bid over again.

Know what's really funny? We didn't tell any of them how far off they were, just that they were an outlier.

Systems can greatly range in price. Chances are the people posting here are having more complex systems designed. Add a radiant floor and wow, price jumps. I am doing two 5 ton installs this week, one is about 80K and another was 25K, what is the difference? One was a water to water unit with radiant floor on a new construction home with a two ductless mini split systems(8 port) and HRV units with full ground loop. The other was a 5 ton retrofit(video on my youtube) with dual marathon water heaters, multi zone system and ground loop. In neither one did we by any means "gouge" anybody, both were the cost it took me to perform the work in a suitable and sustainable manner for by myself and my customer.

If someone were to need a vertical bore for geothermal vs another person who needed a horizontal loop and had plenty of property you will see a 20K difference and drillers in my area charge $20 a foot to drill yet we can excavate a 600' trench for $3,000.

In the end I know that when i quote my price it is at a rate that it takes for me to do everything needed for a full system done properly and a little extra for my pocket because i need to feed my family too.

I am sorry you may have had a bad experience with certain contractors but work with a contractor on this board and maybe you won't have the same issues. We are all here for a reason, to ensure things are done right, to discuss new ideas and to HELP you the homeowner make an educated decision.

Posted By robinnc on 24 Nov 2011 11:28 PM
....
Can anybody answer the questions I posted?

Rob,   how can we answer questions about a bid that we know nothing about?

"...If someone were to need a vertical bore for geothermal vs another person who needed a horizontal loop and had plenty of property you will see a 20K difference and drillers in my area charge $20 a foot to drill yet we can excavate a 600' trench for $3,000..."

Well this does clarify a lot. If you need a vertical system it costs 20,000 dollars more than if you have a lot of land to place a bunch of horizontal tubing.

I'm in Louisiana where the water table is really close to the surface, so I would think it would be well suited to geo. But it would have meant a vertical system, the footprint of my house doesn't leave much room on the lot. 20,000 dollars is a big big difference that would take a long time to pay back in saved energy costs.

drilling might be a lot less in your area.

Yeah, well drilling is generally $5.00 - $7.50 per foot around here in central Arkansas plus the cost of casing if needed (not generally needed with geothermal).

Assuming 200' of well per ton of HVAC, you are looking at around $1000 to $1500 per ton for well drilling costs.