Waterfurnace Envision and Support Problems
Last Post 25 Sep 2014 10:06 AM by joe.ami. 113 Replies.
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Bill NeukranzUser is Offline
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21 Sep 2014 08:30 PM
I think SWOhio's comment equally apply to the Dallas area, where I live.

Commercially, I can point you to many, many satisfied commercial users of geo.  Installations are going in continuously, they're working well, and users are saving tremendously.

Residentially, I don't know of anyone that has geo that's satisfied (here in Dallas area).  I'm not saying that there aren't any, but rather, even in the expanded geo circles I operate in, where it would be more likely that I'd know residential, satisfied users, I don't know of any.  And that's after 7 years of having geo.  And I do know of some (residential) who have it but are not satisfied or actually removed it.

I actually think SWOhio's comments are right on.

If I was in the residential side of geo business here in the Dallas area, and if I had the geo skills of a Joe Ami, docjenser, engineer, bergy, palacegeo (Dwayne), GI Dirt, Sky Heating (and apologies to those I might have missed instantaneously thinking about here), I'd have a waiting line a mile long, and business would be good.  Instead, residential geo in Dallas is no different that how SWOhio's comments indicate.

Best regards,

Bill
Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
fun2driveUser is Offline
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22 Sep 2014 12:17 PM
That begs the question of why?
Why is it that commercial users are satisfied while no residential users are not?
That isn't the experience I have with friends who have these systems so maybe it is equipment, experience and installation technique or region of the country?

If your experience in the DFW area is true of the country that is very depressing for geothermal industry.
joe.amiUser is Offline
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23 Sep 2014 09:38 AM
"Why is it that commercial users are satisfied while no residential users are not?"

Sometimes in large commercial/industrial/municipal it is because they don't know any better. I have been to a place where they bragged about a system that was grossly screwed up. Costs were out of sight and design stunk.
The same engineering firm has tanked at least three projects I'm aware of, but brags about at least one of them.
Joe Hardin
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GreenSWOhioUser is Offline
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23 Sep 2014 11:46 AM
Bill - do you personally have geo in a residential situation and are you satisfied? I am alarmed that you know of no satisfied residential customers.

Miami University, a few miles from where I live, is installing 600' deep wells and heating new buildings with Geo. Before buying a system the university issues RFI's and RFP's and the vendors are legally obligated to achieve stated performance targets. The university may vet potential vendors to establish their financial stability, they may require bonds in order to protect the university if the vendor has problems. After the acquisition, the university can hire an expert to maintain the systems; and periodically have an outside consultant audit the system to ensure targets are met.

This is a very different situation from a sales guy standing in my basement making me a promise. To me, $25,000 is a lot of money for a furnace. So I make sure I am working w/ a company approved by the vendor. And I try to get estimates from several companies, I compare the salesman's stories to establish some credibility.

For residential geo, I am not concerned that the technology is not ready. I am convinced that the support model is not ready.

A person might get a unit that works ok.

Or he might not. If the unit does not work ok - as with my 2nd Waterfurnace - the person can be in a lot of trouble. Folk come out to work on it, and they might be geniuses when it comes to reciting sports scores, changing filters or even installing duct work., but they don't understand geo technology. The guy I talked about above didn't even understand basic heating - but he is the guy sent to maintain my complex system. And Waterfurnace provides no safety net to the consumer who purchased a unit from a certified dealer.

My unit is performing acceptably now. I doubt it is performing at its peak. But how would I ever know?
Bill NeukranzUser is Offline
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23 Sep 2014 05:41 PM
Posted By GreenSWOhio on 23 Sep 2014 11:46 AM
Bill - do you personally have geo in a residential situation
 
... are you satisfied?
 
I am alarmed that you know of no satisfied residential customers.

Miami University, a few miles from where I live, is installing 600' deep wells and heating new buildings with Geo. ...

... I try to get estimates from several companies ...

For residential geo, I am not concerned that the technology is not ready. I am convinced that the support model is not ready.

... Waterfurnace provides no safety net to the consumer who purchased a unit
 
... from a certified dealer.

... My unit is performing acceptably now. I doubt it is performing at its peak. But how would I ever know?

Yes, I personally have geo in a residential situation (my home).  Take a look at http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043 where you'll see how it's implemented and full operating performance.

Additionally, my residence is on the Dallas - Ft. Worth Annual Renewable Energy 'tour of homes' every year (coming up in 2 weeks).  I teach about geo to a day long parade of visitors, including touring the area where the air handling units are and showing the real time performance via a big screen in the garage.

Yes, I'm satisfied.  I put in my performance monitoring system for the specific purpose to verify performance is to manufacturer specs, including EER and COP.  It is.

I suspect I'm also satisfied because I'm a technologist and thus I know the questions to ask and/or the things to look for as a geo system's being installed.

And I suspect I too am satisfied because I spent a lot of time looking over the shoulder of the installer to ensure things were going well.

Still, these are all things that only a tiny fraction of potential customers will do.  Instead, they'll view geo as simply time to replace the A/C and furnace units.  Pay the money, see if it feels cold, and be happy if it does.

I suspect I'm also happy because I grossly over paid.  If you lived in the Dallas area, and got 8 tons of cooling for a 3400 sf home, you'd probably be happy too.  I had to accept my system without a Manual J, S, T, or D.  I couldn't say 'no' to an installer who refused to do these because there wasn't anyone else local in the business.

Yep, don't know any one, *residentially* in Dallas who has geo who is happy.  I know of a few who are unhappy (not enough cooling).  I know of one who ripped out his system after 10 years because EWT every summer was getting over 100 degrees and performance thus stunk.

As you point out, the commercial geo market is so much different.  I can provide list after list after list of satisfied building owners with geo. 

In Dallas, this year, there's no one in the geo residential business.  You have to outside the metroplex to find someone who will 'give you an estimate.'

WaterFurnce does not provide a safety net because it's not the business model they subscribe to.  It's not commonly known that WaterFurnace's responsibilities end at the distributor.  It's the distributor's responsibility to support the installer, not WF. 

Don't go think that you'll just purchase from some other 'big boy' name.  ClimateMaster for example works the same way.

At the residential level, it's all marketing.  A 'certified' dealer simply means the installer sells a certain sales volume.  Has nothing to do with the installer's technical competence.  Some distributors, for example, do the 'designs' for the installers in addition to selling the equipment, telling the installer to just go drill some holes and that's all that really has to be done.

If you really want to know if your unit(s) are performing to manufacturer spec, then you'll need to determine the values that go into the EER and COP computations.  Not difficult, and not expensive, if you use something like the WEL Web Energy Logger.

Best regards,

Bill
Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
joe.amiUser is Offline
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24 Sep 2014 07:50 AM
"Before buying a system the university issues RFI's and RFP's and the vendors are legally obligated to achieve stated performance targets......"

True and if you ever get close you will be shocked at how little these things matter. In a job like this responsibility is spread out between the ME, the drillers the process pipe guys etc. When something doesn't work the ME comes up with a solution and everyone points a finger at something else and the university will pay for whatever "extra" without going through the bid process again. Some contractors will actually bid the original contract at or below cost if they see lots of opportunity for "extras" where they needn't be competitive.

There is also a habit of the ME to "over engineer" often times which is no better. One university official boasted that their EWTs would remain within a few degrees of undisturbed ground temps. Have you any idea how many millions were spent over looping the system to achieve that goal. Sure performance will be good but at what cost? No way with first cost so high that the added expense will be made up for in savings vs a right sized loop system that allows variation in EWT.

The biggest problem I see from the private to the public sector sales is that most of the people doing the buying are not qualified to make the decision. here's a great example: http://plainsdaily.com/entry/stimulus-project-at-minot-state-university-goes-millions-over-budget-according-to-officials/

So if boiler rehab was to be 10 million and geo 16 million then payback for the system "saving approximately $100,000/yr" would be about 60 years right (what part of that metric screams "buy, buy")......but wait there's more, they needed another 10 mil to complete the job and it was the labor market's fault. Huh? So assuming they would have underestimated boiler repair cost as well let's be generous and add only 50 years to that ROI.

Don't you think they went through the same bid process? Of course they did. The good news is that they were also grossly over looped (running up first cost to such a deplorable payback period of 100+ years) that they were later able to add load to the loop field with out augmenting it. IOW's they were able to retire more fossil systems and add more geo plants without adding loops.

Millions later and real results study and modeling have Minot State in a place where they will get the bang for the tax payers buck one would hope for. Other examples are available.

Point is don't trust the process or the people making the decision
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
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joe.amiUser is Offline
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24 Sep 2014 07:54 AM
BTW Bill, In some areas including mine, WF is dealer direct so each contractor/installer is a "distributor".
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
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GreenSWOhioUser is Offline
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24 Sep 2014 03:14 PM
Actually I was involved in a university making major purchases where adherence to performance was guaranteed by the vendor and in cases of non-compliance the vendor was required to bring the systems into compliance in a manner acceptable to the university. Of course the conditions and remedies were specified in the RFP.

I was trying to speculate an answer to the question fun2drive asked "Why is it that commercial users are satisfied while no residential users are not? "

And my point was that commercial users (and universities) have resources and leverage that residential users do not. They have purchasing processes which can provide some protection, and if they acquire large systems they may have on site expertise. Meanwhile the homeowner has someone in their basement making non-binding verbal promises.

I am unhappy with the lack of support I got for my Waterfurnace. I expect to never come out even on my investment. But, I think Geo is the right solution as soon as the industry can figure out a way to protect the homeowner from a situation similar to mine. And the right solution needs backing from more than the distributor - he may be both a great geo-technician and someone barely making enough of a margin to remain financially viable. I think the solution as sold needs backing from the manufacturer.

tamarUser is Offline
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24 Sep 2014 07:30 PM
This discussion reminds me that I have to send a letter to the manufacturer of my units to praise the great support I got from one of their District Region Managers.
Bill NeukranzUser is Offline
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24 Sep 2014 10:19 PM
Posted By joe.ami on 24 Sep 2014 07:54 AM
BTW Bill, In some areas including mine, WF is dealer direct so each contractor/installer is a "distributor".


Didn't know that WaterFurnace subscribed to the 'dealer direct' model in some locations.  Thanks for expanding my learning, Joe.

Here in the Dallas area it's not so.  It's really near impossible to get significant technical assistance from WF if you're the end user.  Similarly so if you have a WF unit that not performing for whatever reason.  WF here is pretty insistent: as an end user, you have to work with your installer (who has to work with his distributor, who works for WF).

Best regards,

Bill
Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
Bill NeukranzUser is Offline
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24 Sep 2014 10:33 PM
Posted By joe.ami on 24 Sep 2014 07:50 AM
...

Point is don't trust the process or the people making the decision


For anyone wanting to have commercial geo put in for their commercial structure(s) in the Dallas area, contact me for referrals.  Commercial geo is very popular here, and there's a long list of success stories.

Best regards,

Bill
Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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24 Sep 2014 10:46 PM
I was recently switched to "dealer direct" relieving me of dealing with a distributor who didn't know "geothermal" from "geographic" (and went bankrupt, besides).

However, that doesn't increase my "end user" clients access to WF...same as with Ford, GM, Carrier, Trane, or any other manufacturer distributing through dealers.

It never ceases to amaze me how hard getting geo right seems to be! I tell my up and coming guys that verifying successful operation of an air source heat pump requires measuring and interpreting just two pressures and two temperatures (refrigerant press and temp, high + low) Getting geo right requires two more of each (water in, water out). Geo water side measurements often negate need for refrigerant side gauging, a bonus!

Assuming a geo system is installed with Pete's ports, assessing water side (and thus overall system performance) can be safely done with $50 worth of instruments and a quick look at the relevant performance tables - no contact with high voltage or high refrigerant pressures needed - simple multiplication yields accurate heat rejected or heat extracted. It's scarcely harder than assessing a child running a fever, with the advantage that the geo system, unlike a child, holds still during measurements...Folks, this stuff ain't rocket science!
Curt Kinder <br><br>

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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25 Sep 2014 05:49 AM
FYI -- I am in the DFW area and live in an ICF house utilizing Waterfurnace Envision system and it has worked perfectly for the past seven years or so. Other than occasionally blowing out the drains it's been working great. A few years ago I added some water to the loop as well.

Willis Mechanical is our guy for anything more complicated than that. He does know Envision really well as well as some other systems. We were one of the first customers in the Envision series and Willis swapped out some parts early on - due to use of some material that caused corrosion in the heat exchangers if I recall. Regards
joe.amiUser is Offline
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25 Sep 2014 10:06 AM
"Actually I was involved in a university making major purchases where adherence to performance was guaranteed by the vendor...."

That's usually not the problem, it's allegience to keeping first cost down that many don't subscribe to. I hope your project is a sucess, I'm just pointing out for Universities in particular success is often measured differently than for homeowners. Performance sometimes is measured by how close you stay to undisturbed ground temps (regardless of needless waste of millions in up front cost).

A homeowner can't issue bonds or ask the State for loans. A homeowner wants a quicker return than a city hall that can issue a 15 year bond.
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
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