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GreenSWOhio
New Member
Posts:74
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12 Feb 2012 02:23 PM |
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It is an hour fromI-75 (Monroe exit N of Cincinnati) to my house. The other complication is that I have worn out the excuse of taking days off work for Waterfurnace maintenance. I net contact info to you yesterday. Did you get it?
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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13 Feb 2012 07:38 AM |
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I did. Looked like an hour from 75 and I think our laid out route was 77. I shoot you an email if we stretch the trip into the weekend. |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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WF_Inc.
New Member
Posts:88
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14 Feb 2012 08:56 AM |
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GreenSWOhio, We will be more than happy to listen to the recorded phone conversation. We will need to know the day that you called, the number you called from, and the name of the person you spoke with at WaterFurnace. Please feel free to send us a private message with this information. In regards to our support, we have offered to assist several times. At this point, we are waiting for you to decide which WaterFurnace dealer you would like to work with. Once you have chosen a WaterFurnace dealer, please let us know so we can take the necessary to help you resolve your issues. WaterFurnace International, inc. |
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GreenSWOhio
New Member
Posts:74
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20 Feb 2012 06:22 PM |
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My Waterfurnace Envision experienced many waterflow faults during January. Each time I power cycled the Envision - and it behaved for about 24 hours.
Since February 8th it was fairly well behaved. I think, but am not sure, that "Nick" changed some DIP switch settings to have electric come on - so instead of a geothermal furnace I have more of maybe an electric furnace with a geo backup for when it's not cold outside.
I talked to Nick on 2/8. He said he'd call back, but he has not and I have been slammed at work.
Waterfurnace sounds like they want to help me and are getting a bit impatient. I am impatient to get this fixed also. They want me to pick a contractor. I have picked 4, all companies recommended by Waterfurnace. The reasons each contractor discontinued servicing my unit is mentioned in this blog. I hope "Nick" does not walk on me.
I put together a summary of my service logs. I will post it next.
Is 28F incoming water too cold? |
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GreenSWOhio
New Member
Posts:74
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20 Feb 2012 07:41 PM |
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Summary of
service calls. Each call for service was made because of a Waterflow fault.
There were many more waterflow faults than listed here as I was told to power
cycle the furnace when I noticed a fault.
Date
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Water
temp in / out
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Pressure
in / out (F)
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Gallons
per minute
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Company
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Outside
temp
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Recommendation
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Notes
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Novr
2010
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Get
prices from 2 Waterfurnace dealers. Each assures me that the loop is
adequate and will work well with a new Waterfurnace Envision.
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12/15/10
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29.5
/ 26.8
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56.5
/ 50.5
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Wright
Solution Group
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32,000
BTU heat of extraction. Installed 4 ton Geo, flow center, reconnected
pipeing, new thermostat, new april air 600 humidifier. Checked operation, OK
at this time.
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I
did not know that Wright Soln Group was soon to go out of business.
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2/14/11
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37.6
/ 32.8
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58/53
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14
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Wright
Solution Group
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Flush
and replace fluid in loop. Flush loop with 150 gallons water and added
Evnironl. Attained 15F protection at .87 specific gravity. DIP switch
settings OK. Delta T 26F.
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The
1st indication I had that there were problems with the Envision
was my February electric bill – the highest I had in 20 years at this place
up to that time.
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2/18/11
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Wright
Solution Group
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Add
anti freeze to system; flushed unit and added 4 gal anti freeze. Specific gravity
is .982 15F protection
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6
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2/23/11
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32
/ 27
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14
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45F
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No
bill: C suspects there is a faulty thermistor or a bad system board.
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3/2/11
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Looked
good
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Looked
good.
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No
bill: install new thermistor; C believes system board is OK.
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3/14/11
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28
/ 24
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59
/ 55
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Wright
Solution Group
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Waterflow
fault; pump center moving water too fast through the loop, not picking up
enough heat. Disconnected 1 pump and watched incoming water temp settle out
at 28F. After long run cycle water temp never dropped below 28F. Equipment
operating correctly at this time. Supply 99oF; Return 72oF; 36,000 BTUs;
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C
thinks the anti-freeze in the external loop may be causing the Reynald’s
number to be too low. Caused if anti-freeze has wrong viscosity, wanted to
know if I knew what anti-freeze was in original loop (no – no note in 1989
doc either). He is coming Monday to do some tests.
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3/26/11
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Waterflow
fault, Wright Soln Group does not return calls.
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4/5/11
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30.6
/ 27
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15
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Don
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No
bill: nothing wrong with loop; pressure in refrigerant circuit is way too
high. Don releases pressure into room.
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5/30/11
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Don
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No
bill: Air Conditioning does not work. Don says there is something wrong with
a valve. He will order a new one and switch manually. He’ll be back before
winter.
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9/5/11
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Don
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No
bill: Don replaces valve.
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1/3/12
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Don
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No
bill: Don says waterflow rate of 15GPM is too high. He turns valve on “out”
pump till flow rate is 12GPM.
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1/4/12
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Don
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Don
says Waterfurnace tech told him my loop is too small.
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He
doesn’t believe the problem is in the loop, he apologizes, but says he can’t
get involved in this and he can’t fix it without technical assistance.
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1/5/12
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Waterfurnace
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I
talk to Tricia, she validates that my old Waterfurnace was 4 tons like the
new one. She tells me the loop is not the problem.
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1/10/12
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28
/ 24
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Nick
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Waterflow
fault; Loop temp too low; Loop has been covered by silt. Customer needs new
loop; call Trisha @ 888 929 2837/opt 9.
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B
from “Nick” made the diagnosis on my front walk before he entered the house
or made any measurements.
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1/10/12
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Jack
– a geothermal well drilling organization.
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T
from Jack thinks the loop might not be the problem. He does not want to
install a new loop and then have the waterflow fault again.
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1/17/12
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Nick
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Not
heating correctly; Found TXV not insulated, reinsulated TXV. Operation checked
OK; Delta T @ Vap = 30o; Delta T @ coax 4; Delta P @ Coax 6. HE BTU 30,000t.
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1/27/12
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42
/ 36
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Nick
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Replaced
LED status light board & harness; Loop temperature good, operation is
normal.
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2/8/
12
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27.1
/ 23.7
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48.5
/ 44
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12
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William
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Need
new TXV and filter (?)
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A
from William tells me I had system setup so electric backup would not come
on. It should not be setup this way, it leaves no time for loop to recover.
I point out that is the way I ran the old Waterfurnace for 20 years. He says
the new unit has a dual stage geo unit and needs the electric to recover. He
thinks ice is forming around the pond loop.
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docjenser
Veteran Member
Posts:1400
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20 Feb 2012 10:01 PM |
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Two things are complete nonsense here. First the flow is rarely too high. So when you run your loop with 12, 14 or 15 gpm, it does not trigger a fault. Nor does it make any sense to throttle the flow down to 12 gpm. If you has sediment in the loop, you might have something plugged up somewhere. A flow restriction would increase the pressure drop, falsely indicating a higher flow. Second, similar nonsense is it to turn the aux heat on to let the loop "recover". Usually the aux heat comes on as third stage, when the heatpump cannot keep up at very cold temperatures. When it gets warmer the aux heat turns off, but the heatpump keeps running consistently in 2nd or 1st stage, until it gets so warm outside that the unit starts cycling in 1st stage only. ' So the load the heatpump puts onto the loop is similar whether you have aux heat or not, just the peak capacity changes. You house simply does not get warm enough. But the heat extracted from the loop is the same. Now you giving a more comprehend story here with a better timeline, your loop going from 42F EWT to 27 EWT within 12 days this February tells me that there is indeed something wrong with your loop, especially when it is a pond loop. Could you detail the loop design please On the other hand, 27F EWT should not throw a code either. One thing to keep in mind is that the efficiency (COP) has almost doubled in the last 25 years, meaning for the same 4 ton capacity, they now extract much more heat out of the loop in relation to the energy going into the compressor. Thus it is possible, and the numbers suggest that, that the loop has become too small, plus now covered with silt. again, further details about the loopfield would help. |
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www.buffalogeothermalheating.com |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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20 Feb 2012 10:09 PM |
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This is pitiful - some real bozos have worked on this system. To wit: 1) the 3/14/11 comment that water was moving too fast through loop to pick up heat. That is complete nonsense - the faster water flows, the more turbulence and heat transfer occurs. Think wind chill - the faster the wind blows, the colder skin feels since heat is being convected away. 2) 4/5/11 - What tech worthy of the name would vent refrigerant rather than recover it as required by law? Caught doing this, he'd lose his EPA cert and would not be able to posess refrigerant or open any system. 3) 1/3/12 - same comment as #1 above. There are valid arguments against over pumping water through a unit, but heat transfer isn't one of them. 4) 1/10/12. Loop temps in the 20s are perfectly OK. There is some reduction in COP, but it is not a major issue and should not cause low water flow error on a system protected by anti-freeze as this one is. 5) 2/8/12 - That a unit has two stages has zip, nada, zero impact on the need for electric backup. The ONLY time electric backup should come on is when outdoor temperature is low enough that stage two geo operation falls short of building heat loss. That's a design decision that pertains to system sizing. Newer higher efficiency units extract a bit more heat from the loop per ton of capacity. Put another way, the loop has to make up the difference betwen old unit electricity consumption and new unit (lower) electricity consumption. Simple example: If the old 4 ton system delivered 40,000 BTUH at a COP of 3.0, it would have extracted 26,667 Btuh and used power equivalent to 13,333 Btuh. If the new system operates a a COP of 4.0, it would extract 30,000 Btuh and use power equivalent to 10,000 Btuh. Therefore there would be some depression of loop temperatures, perhaps such that the new system operates at a COP of 3.5 or so. 6) 1/27/12 - I suspect a parts changer, not a real technician. I've said it before, I'll say it again - it is not uncommon for a Water Flow error to be caused by a loss of refrigerant charge. The Water Flow error is set by a temperature sensor on the refrigerant line leaving the waterside coax. Low water flow will cause the condition of low leaving refrigerant temperature, but so too will low refrigerant charge cause the same low leaving refrigerant temperature. Has charge been checked? The most foolproof way of doing that is to recover it and weigh it back in. Correct charge is particularly crucial to package units - they don't hold as much as splits so are more sensitive to loss of a small amount. If you and WaterFurnace can't collectively come up with a dealer contractor within 100 miles able to work through the issues without making errors such as the ones I cite above, then it is time for both parties to throw in the towel. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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20 Feb 2012 11:06 PM |
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I'd get some temperature monitoring on the refrigerant line right at the Freeze Sensor, and see if indeed the FS is locking out the system at 15° F. This would be a pretty easy way to sort out if it's a water vs refrigerant loop problem, and to sort out if some of the DIP switches are set correctly.
Best regards,
Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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21 Feb 2012 03:02 PM |
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"Bozos"? Or factory certified technicians? Unfortunately a real tech is going to have to start from scratch. First with loop design (if possible) and with antifreeze content. I agree with Bill that monitoring equip would make sense. My wife and I discussed a change in route from our trip last week, but we drove 1700 miles in 4 days as it was and I don't think we were going to be able to solve this in a short visit. Might be a good job for Custis as he is semi retired and can baby sit for a time, but I think a TED or WEL would be a good place to start. I also agree that 27* should not keep locking the system out. Over the years I have come to the conclusion that most "nightmare" problems are caused by the technician not the equipment, and simple things are easily over looked. One common easy to overlook problem is wiring. Whether this is monitored by thermistor or switch, I would make sure the wires and related plugs are in order. joe |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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21 Feb 2012 03:12 PM |
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I also wanted to mention that GPM can impact EWT. We learned this once upon a time when we first recieved a 3 speed flow center. The thing is that mor GPM with slightly lower temp does not mean you are collecting less BTUs.
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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21 Feb 2012 08:40 PM |
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I believe the sensor is the usual 10k @ 77*F thermistor. Taping the probe of an LCD meat thermometer (Walmart $15) on the refrigerant line near the sensor is a good diagnostic move as long as client is handy and safe inside unit cabinet (turn off power 1st) Confirming that the low temperature cut out dip switch is set for anti-freeze (15*F) as opposed to well water (30*F) |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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22 Feb 2012 09:05 AM |
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thermometer attached near sensor will have to be monitored, it doesn't sound like this happens predictably enough. |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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22 Feb 2012 11:04 AM |
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A WEL unit with a number of temp sensors strategically placed would require only a couple of days for delivery, no more than a few hours for installation, and data would be recording on a minute by minute basis by the weekend, and available to all to view and offer counsel. My guess is as long as the climate is still cold, the big picture and the detail behind the big picture would quickly become apparent, especially to seasoned HVAC pros. My further guess is if something like this is seriously considered it needs to be done quickly while the climate is still cold. Once it starts warming up, it will be another full year cycle before the conditions repeat. One hurdle is cost. This is probably a $500 - 600 investment into a system where if there's no desire to use it afterwards for other purposes, then it's a pretty expensive 'tool' to find out where the problem is. Maybe there's an aftermarket for WEL units. Another hurdle is overcoming the obvious observation in that it sure seems like overkill, when compared to using an experienced HVAC professional, and I don't necessarily disagree. Best regards, Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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docjenser
Veteran Member
Posts:1400
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22 Feb 2012 06:26 PM |
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It is the first thing we do when ask to troubleshoot other systems which are still running (at least partially): Putting a WEL on it. Some things are obvious, for example not enough heat extraction. But more complex things, like loop performance, lack of flow in the radiant floors (flow restriction, lack of performance of air handlers (unwarranted claims by the manufacturers). You name it, the WEL picked it up. |
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www.buffalogeothermalheating.com |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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22 Feb 2012 08:42 PM |
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Posted By docjenser on 22 Feb 2012 06:26 PM It is the first thing we do when ask to troubleshoot other systems which are still running (at least partially): Putting a WEL on it. Some things are obvious, for example not enough heat extraction. But more complex things, like loop performance, lack of flow in the radiant floors (flow restriction, lack of performance of air handlers (unwarranted claims by the manufacturers). You name it, the WEL picked it up. Agreed. Down here (Dallas area) it's long established (and expensive) HOBO (Onset) monitoring stuff that the commercial in particular HVAC professionals use. Easy to temporarily install, wireless for the most part, gets a lot of data points, and dramatically 'paints' a big picture to solve tough problems that would take a long to figure out otherwise. But clearly not at the price point the WEL's is down to. It would be nice if GreenSWOhio could call up an HVAC professional with a HOBO 'tool kit.' I'll bet some commercial HVAC professionals in his area have this. My guess is you're one of the few to have a WEL 'tool kit' that you've invested into for the purposes of diagnosis of tough problems (and charging accordingly) - nation wide for that matter. My guess is for about $1000 investment into a WEL system, you can probably do a lot more than a HOBO system limited to max $1000. And my guess further is you don't need very many complicated service calls to quickly break even and then make profit on having a WEL 'tool kit.' With the WEL product still primarily aimed at the DIY market, the alternative unfortunately is to spend the money and install one oneself. Not a very attractive alternative to a geo home owner that simply wants his same-size-as-before unit to work just like his other unit worked. Best regards, Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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22 Feb 2012 09:28 PM |
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The gist of the last few posts seems to be that temperature logging will save the day...maybe so, maybe not. An intermediate option might be a Lascar USB temperature logger such as model EL-USB-TC-LCD, about $100 |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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docjenser
Veteran Member
Posts:1400
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23 Feb 2012 12:40 AM |
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Posted By engineer on 22 Feb 2012 09:28 PM
The gist of the last few posts seems to be that temperature logging will save the day...maybe so, maybe not. An intermediate option might be a Lascar USB temperature logger such as model EL-USB-TC-LCD, about $100
After going out to sites to troubleshoot on 3rd party installs, where you do not have all the details of the system, you simply do not have all the data. So you end up going back multiple times. The WEL which we apply in a standardized fashion, simply cut short the time until the problem was found and resolved. Look at the forum here where we have endless stories asking for data so we can troubleshoot, and once we have one datapoint, we ask for the next. The WEL addresses most of this. |
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www.buffalogeothermalheating.com |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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24 Feb 2012 10:08 AM |
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sounds like a good one in the tool box. |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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GreenSWOhio
New Member
Posts:74
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GreenSWOhio
New Member
Posts:74
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24 Feb 2012 11:27 AM |
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Reply to docjenser:
I do not have details on the loop design. The original installer from 1989 is no longer in business. I know the original loop worked well for 20 years, up to the day I got the new Envision.
I also don't know why the incoming water temp went from 42 on 1/27 (mean outside temp = 37F) to 27 on 2/8 (mean outside temp = 33). I had my own digital thermometer in the outgoing port on 1/28 and the outgoing temp was 30F. The unit ran on electric backup a lot this past January.
The efficiency may have increased a lot in the last 20 years, but my house & insulation are the same. I don't need more BTUs to heat the house. I expect there is silt on the loop. But it worked fine with the old unit. |
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