Joe Hardin: The status board and associated wiring harness were replaced. Is that what you are looking for?

I have to find another source for the temperature probe. The company that was going to overnight it to me told me they are back ordered till May.

I'll follow your advice about what to measure, but if someone has a few moments to help me understand...

Why isn't the incoming H2O temp the thing to measure? It seems like the 1st thing I want to determine is if the loop or the furnace is at fault. By the time I measure outgoing temp I am seeing a combination of effects from the furnace & the loop. Let's say the temp drops to 15F and faults, and I have a temp record showing that. In that case I don't know if the incoming temp was too cold or if the furnace extracted too much heat (perhaps because of a refrigerant problem) from the incoming water.

BTW, the outside temp is predicted to go to 66F today!

Thx,

Posted By GreenSWOhio on 29 Feb 2012 09:22 AM
Joe Hardin: The status board and associated wiring harness were replaced. Is that what you are looking for?

I have to find another source for the temperature probe. The company that was going to overnight it to me told me they are back ordered till May.

I'll follow your advice about what to measure, but if someone has a few moments to help me understand...

Why isn't the incoming H2O temp the thing to measure? It seems like the 1st thing I want to determine is if the loop or the furnace is at fault. By the time I measure outgoing temp I am seeing a combination of effects from the furnace & the loop. Let's say the temp drops to 15F and faults, and I have a temp record showing that. In that case I don't know if the incoming temp was too cold or if the furnace extracted too much heat (perhaps because of a refrigerant problem) from the incoming water.

BTW, the outside temp is predicted to go to 66F today!

Thx,

Your unit goes into lockdown with fault code 4. which indicates low source temp. The sensor is actually a thermistor on the suction line of the refrigerant circuit. While "william's" techs confirmed that the sensor is OK, you need to confirm that the leaving water is not low enough to trip the fault and send your unit into lockdown. You are right, normally EWT is the key number, but with your error code, you need to assure that the flow is fine. LWT will give you a sense of that. If it is above 20F and your unit trips, you need to monitor the temp on the suction line. If that goes below 15F, your suction line is too cold, which means either low refrigerant or a faulty TXV. Since your pressure is good on the discharge line, it excludes low refrigerant and only leaves a faulty TXV, as outlined before. Your furnace cannot extract too much heat, it is limited by its capacity.

GreenSWOhio, We apologize for our delay in response. As we have previously stated; you find a licensed HVAC contractor that you feel comfortable working with and we will make arrangements to meet them on-site. Unfortunately, there's nothing futher we can do until you let us know who you would like to work with. WaterFurnace International, Inc.

Agree with Doc. Temp will verify, but my bet's on the TXV (if charge indeed is ok).

WFI, OP asked repeatedly if there was a warranty consequence to setting up temp probes.

on 2/29/12 I ordered two LASCAR EL-USB-TC; K; J; and T-type Thermocouple

These are not expensive compared to a new loop so I got 2. 2 are much less expensive than the WEL, of course they do much less. But each can store 32,000 measurements. I got 2 day shipping so they should be here soon.

I also talked to "R" from "Nick". R was the person I mentioned earlier who told me he knew what was wrong with the Envision, would charge me $800 to $1,000 to fix it, but was having problems getting Waterfurnace to pay for warranty work.

I told him I'd pay for the parts & labor if Waterfurnace won't. He told me that when he was at my house last time he convinced himself that the valve and/or filter was at fault. He was at my place with a tech from another company that installs wells and pond loops. Both concluded there was no problem with my pond loop after running the furnace for an extended period of time.

R told me he'd try to work with Waterfurnace so this is no more expensive to me than necessary. I told him to remind WF that the guy who replaced the valve and left it un-insulated was specifically recommended by their Ohio Rep; he gave me that tech's name and phone number.

After I receive the temp probes I'd like to place them where ever you tell me. (Remember - I am not a furnace tech, but I am mechanically competent. I have the doc that came with the furnace if that is important.)

I hope R can fix the problem. I don't expect to be able to make that conclusion until next winter when the temp drops. Maybe I can do better than that with your advice.

Thanks again for your help,

GreenSWOhio

GreenSWOhio & joe.ami, The use of temperature probes will not adversely affect the homeowner’s WaterFurnace warranty. WaterFurnace International, Inc.

I have two LASCAREL-USB-TC probes. I will put one in the outgoing H2O port tonight. However, it is now warm in SW Ohio. We'll see what we can learn.

I have inserted the probe into the outgoing port.

However the doc with the probe indicates that while the LASCAREL-USB-TC has a wide temp range, the supplied basic K-type thermocouple is only rated from 32 to 230°F.

Do I need a different thermocouple or is this close enough?

thx

When you want to convince yourself that you loop is fine, you need something going below 30F, possibly down to 15F.

Posted By GreenSWOhio on 07 Mar 2012 07:58 PM
I have inserted the probe into the outgoing port.

However the doc with the probe indicates that while the LASCAREL-USB-TC has a wide temp range, the supplied basic K-type thermocouple is only rated from 32 to 230°F.

Do I need a different thermocouple or is this close enough?

thx

Type K tc's are good to way below what you are measuring.  Not sure of your tc reader, though.  Thermocouples are really good and accurate for relative readings, such as readings over time, or comparisons between two tc's (ie, delta T), but they aren't so good for absolute measurements as they can be off several degrees even though 2 tc's will read the same temp within 0.2 degrees or so.  The fix for this is to calibrate the tc.  This is usually done by comparing the tc to known good temp measuring equipment over the tc's range, plotting a curve and adjusting the reading.

For your use, just checking the tc at water's ice point should be good enough.  This can be done by checking the temp of an ice water bath.  Put enough crushed ice in the bath so it's not just floating on water...you don't want the tc to be inserted under the ice and into the water or you'd get a faulty reading.  If the ice came out of a very cold freezer, you'll want to leave the ice bath out a while for the ice temp to stablize.  The reading in the ice bath should be 32 degrees.  Add or subtract the difference from your equipment reading as necessary.

I'm using 2 tc's and a tc reader on my geo system to monitor in and out loop temps.  Not real high tech, and no monitoring.  I just turn it on when I want  to check things.  I used the calibration procedure above and found my tc's off by 7.2 degrees.  That's enough of a difference to make you think that a perfectly normal loop may have a problem. The adjusted reading makes sense, just by observing when the return to the ground loop gets low enough to start frosting the outside of the line up from humidity.

And then?

The E series is just as bad. I have replaced the "board", the compressor, and the coils on my 6 ton E series and continue to have problems. Freezing with snow on the ground, 71 degree heat out of the vents is not getting it done. WATERFURNACE denies my contractor (now out of business) bought down the warranty to a lesser grade in order to pocket the extra money. I was told I had a 10 year warranty and I guess he planned to take care of it "in house" until WATERFURNACE put out their latest junk and he couldn't afford to stay in business! Customer service from WATERFURNACE IS NO HELP.

I know, some will say it's not WATERFURNACE'S fault and that I chose the wrong contractor. I say WATERFURNACE shouldn't even offer a "buy down" of their warranty without the homeowner's knowledge. This is just plain shady business practice even if it is legal it is morally wrong! WATERFURNACE put out some real junk in the last few years and if you will google "waterfurnace problem" you will see what I mean. You will also note that WATERFURNACE will rapidly throw their contractors under the bus! I will not buy another waterfurnace and I don't think anyone should. Don't take my word for it, check it out.

Maybe it is time to look more seriously at mini-splits.  I have never specified mini-splits but some of my clients plan to install them.

"I say WATERFURNACE shouldn't even offer a "buy down" of their warranty without the homeowner's knowledge. This is just plain shady business practice even if it is legal it is morally wrong! "
It's weird, and it does deceive. Back when WFI participated in social media, I asked how something you could elect not to pay for could be called "standard". It resulted in a circular conversation that yeilded only headshakes from myself and a few others.
What's more with warranties (and this is not exclusive to WF) labor allowances are often significantly less than prevailing repair rates. It is however generally enough to cover the contractor's cost of repair so that an installer can choose not to charge his clients (profiting from warranty work). So buyer beware of the limits of warranties and ask suitors for your job what they will charge you for warranty work.

"I know, some will say it's not WATERFURNACE'S fault and that I chose the wrong contractor."

Yes unfortunately this is true. Waterfurnace (CM, Bosch and other geo manufacturers) provides part of a system and makes a few hundred bucks on it. Your contractor was responsible for design and continued service. Again buyers beware.

Geo dealers are not franchises and manufacturers do not have control over them. As manufacturers are now "certifying" dealers or designating them as superduper or premier or gold or whatever, it implies an expertise that is often not there. Frankly it most often is a reward for volume.

WF had a very aggressive dealer training program and certification process that they used to suggest their dealers were better than everyone else (which I believe is a big source of the wrath they get). I think this suggests some responsibility on the manufacturers part for the performance of their "premier" dealers but that and a dollar will get you a cheap cup of coffee.

Jmarkham, there are many pros here who wish to help when systems fail. Perhaps you can start your own thread with some history and see if we have any thoughts. 71F doesn't sound like you are heating at all.

Hello all.

I received an email asking for the rest of the story…

My last post was March 2012. It seemed to me that Waterfurnace was no help what so ever and was not going to help and I was getting no help from the WF certified dealers I contacted, and one of them seemed to imply that WF was not going to help me after what I posted here and was discouraging him from helping me.

After a bit of research looking for someone who was going to "go by the book" rather than adjust the furnace by intuition I found a very competent technician, Chris, who has a dealership and sells another brand. He made adjustments to the Envision to return it to manufacturer's spec; but the WF was still extracting more heat than the loop could produce and consequently it was supplementing with electric backup. Apparently my pond loop was sufficient for the 1989 4T WF but could not keep up with the 2010 4T Envision despite what the Salesman, his technicians and WF told me. I decided to look at replacing the pond loop with vertical wells.

I learned that wells can have problems with grouting, the wells being too close to one another, and/or being too short. I got Jackson Geothermal to replace the pond loop with five 155 foot deep vertical wells. I required that Jackson not farm out the well installation, and that they use the correct grouting, and do tests before considering the job complete. I had Chris review the results.

Jackson removed the pond loop. There was nothing wrong with it. It was not covered with debris. My pond is spring fed rather than surface fed.

I am now satisfied with my Geothermal performance. The electric backup does not come on expect for the times I deliberately turn it on to check it out.

I am not satisfied with support for Geothermal units. I had to do too much work, and had to learn too much and had to spend almost double the money I was expecting to spend to get this thing performing correctly.

While Chris is competent, he is hiring from the same pool as the other companies. A year after he was here he sent an employee to check out the unit. Tom (not his real name) inserted a probe in the cold air return above the thermostat and another probe in the basement in the return air duct immediately before the air filter. The probe in the duct read a higher temperature. I asked him why he thought the temperature was higher there then upstairs in the hall. He told me the air was moving faster there and the friction caused it to heat up. I asked Tom if he was serious. Yes he was. I didn’t ask any more questions.


When asked, I recommend people look at something other than a Geothermal unit. I hate doing this, but people work hard for their money and although these units have been available for decades the industry is either not ready or not willing to support them.

Two neighbors have had horrible results with their Geothermal units. Their experience was similar to mine in that the units as installed relied heavily on electric backup and for whatever reason could not extract sufficient heat from their loops. One replaced his unit with a gas furnace – he said he couldn’t afford the electric bills. The other keeps his house at a low temperature selectively heating one TV room with an electric heater. This second neighbor tried to work with the unit’s manufacturer; he was told it was a loop problem; the loop installer says the problem is in the Geothermal unit; the installer says all geothermal units need electric backup from time to time. My neighbor is hoping for a mild winter.

Appreciate the update. I have two work chums that have geo units installed and neither has had any issues except a transfer issue with scale build up easily solved. However this is for systems at 30 degrees Lat and cooling is required a lot more often then heat here. I have a work friend that lives close to me in Ohio just north of you and has geo system running horizontal loops has performed without issue for over 3 years now.
I am building a new home and geo is part of my plan. You state that you had 20 years of good service out of the old unit and now don't recommend geo systems because of teething issues if I understand your concern.
Having read this entire thread it seems like many times the loop was suggested as the issue but other experts stated it was OK in size. To me that doesn't speak to a manufacturer issue but an installer issue of not knowing the requirements for the model they were installing.

Also regarding gas furnaces I own a home I built maybe 50 miles north of you and have experienced two gas furnace failures. Not a cheap furnace either but the best Lennox pulse that they produced. Maybe 9 years after running it the heat exchanged cracked requiring total replacement. OK fluke is what I thought since it was a pulse and new design. High efficiency Lennox replacement not a pulse ran for 15 years and yet again another heat exchange cracked.

That furnace was replaced with a different furnace (Westinghouse). Point of all this is that those furnaces too have issues. I am not dissuaded from going with a geo system but to me the installer is also the key. From reading the performance of these geo systems seem to be all close.

I am happy to hear your system has now performed well since being tweaked. Sorry to hear that you had to spend so much to get vertical wells to get the performance out of the system.

Had I gone through what you went through I can understand your suggestion. I would not be one to recommend Lennox based on my experience either.

Thanks for updating the thread...

Fun2drive - Geothermal technology is not ready for the general public. The difference between a gas furnace problem and this unit is that to resolve my Waterfurnace problem I had to spend almost 2 years diagnosing the problem, asking for help, installing temperature probes, and asking for more help.

While I was doing this I had a parade of contractors come thru the house, some of whom told me that the furnace was operating in spec - it just needed to use its electric elements more than the old furnace. They told me the furnace was fine.

There was no safety net.

In addition to the 2 examples of neighbors' experience I mentioned above, I have heard from other people who just accept the "fact" that geothermal is more expensive to run than conventional units; they dont stick with a diagnostic exercise as long as I did. They believe the technicians who tell them the furnace is fine.

The manufacturer, Waterfurnace, told me my 1989 loop was adequate for the 2010 model, and various technicians validated that. I guess they were all wrong despite their careful calculations.

I know lots of people with gas furnaces, some of them have problems, but their "teething" problems are resolved in weeks rather than years, and they don't have near the electric bills nor the eventual investment that I had to make.

Having said all that, I don't want to take anything away from the folk on this forum who tried to help me. They were great, but I couldn't find similar competence in SW Ohio using the list of vendors supplied by WF.

In the end it was my problem, I had to learn enough to decide how it was going to be resolved and then expend the necessary funds.

Expecting members of the general public to do that is not reasonable.

Sorry about your trouble GreenSW. I certainly have experienced quirky problems with more than one brand, but that was never left to my client to diagnose. That has always been my responsibility.
The loop thing is interesting. Assuming the BTU's required to heat your home remained unchanged, the new unit would not have to extract more btu's than the old. The only real difference would be less waste heat contributed by the compressor. Did old unit have DSH? Did new? Did pond level change?
It also is unfortunate if indeed you needed new loops that no one thought to augment versus replace.
My goal as a contributor here is to learn and to try to help those who find themselves served by un evolved installers.

GreenSWOhio
All of your issues started when they retrofitted a new WF into your home. Given the effort and number of skilled technicians that came to try and solve the problem I too would run from ever considering geothermal. I have the option of going with a gas furnace if I choose since my build date is December. However you had no issues if I recall correctly with your first geothermal unit which was WF too, is that correct?
That doesn't sound like unproven technology to me.
Frankly having two gas furnaces which were built by one of the better companies out there fail makes me question the quality and durability of any of these furnaces. My problems were not teething problems they were stone cold complete failures of a major component that can kill you with Co2.

I have no confidence in the manufacturer and will never buy a product from them again simply because 2 out of 2 failures is not a coincidence to me.

My expected cost for a geothermal system where I live will most likely be at least 6-7 vertical wells and a geothermal system someplace in the 6 ton range. These are guesses based on friends who have systems in their homes. That cost will run pretty close to 3 times what a conventional high efficiency gas furnace would run but there is the 30% tax reduction ending the end of December 2016 which would still make the system over twice as expensive. However AC is needed here at least 7 months a year sometimes 8 so heating is not the main use AC is. I think this is where geothermal shines.

In the end we all have to pick a system that we can all live with day in and day out.

Your experience makes me very wary of geothermal systems but not deterred yet.
This forum is excellent for providing insight on not only just good experiences but also bad experiences...

fun2drive. make sure you pick a dealer who will support you. that's the main thing.

Lennox has not been a superior product for years. most furnace brands had their stinkers. Carrier/Bryant (et al dba's) had a class action suit against them for more than a decade of bad heat exchangers.

Goodman now sells more resi furnaces and AC's Than the carrier or lennox family's. Goodman owns Amana which is IMHO the best furnace on the market today. Amana however had a system that made heat and hot water in the 80's that was nothing but trouble.