Geo vs 24.5 iQ Drive
Last Post 18 Feb 2012 09:31 AM by sesmith. 13 Replies.
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blueflammeUser is Offline
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14 Feb 2012 10:12 AM
I'm about to build a new modular house and am struggling with deciding on HVAC.  Like with everything its all running headlong into the budget.  I've got some quotes from my builder and from 2 of the top geothermal guys in my area.  My wife's response is its just too expensive and I need to stop pursuing it.  Luckily I'm stubborn and would like a 2nd opinion

I live next to Virginia Beach and the house will be 32' x 56' cape cod with 1700 ft2 down, 1300 ft2 upstairs, and a future 26x20 bonus room over the garage.  It's a modular house and will have R-21 walls, R-38 between 1st & 2nd, R-19 in kneewalls plus 2" EPS, and about R-38 plus 2" EPS on the ceiling.  My goal is to seal the crawlspace and ensure all the HVAC runs are within the envelope.

Here are the estimates I've been offered so far.

13 SEER $8K
15 SEER $10K
iQ Drive 24.5 SEER $15K
1st Geo 4 Ton 2 Stage $32K (FHP)
2nd Geo 5 Ton 2 Stage $32K (Climate Master)
 
Knock the geo's down to $22.5K after the federal tax credit.

I'd really like to hear y'alls thoughts on if geo (or even the iQ Drive) is justified for my area/circumstances. 

Also if anyone has experience with the iQ Drive

Thanks,

Scott

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14 Feb 2012 11:00 AM
Luckily I'm stubborn and would like a 2nd opinion
Why make a major purchase based on opinion? Get a heating/cost analysis done for the different types of equipment you are considering and see what the dollars and (sense) say in the long run. Virginia Beach is such a mild climate, it's hard to believe that geo can beat highly efficient air source equipment there.

Do those quotes include all the ducting and controls as well?
joe.amiUser is Offline
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14 Feb 2012 06:50 PM
Anybidder woth their salt should be able to offer you op cost comparisons between different systems. Ask them to convince you.
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
engineerUser is Offline
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15 Feb 2012 06:37 AM
AFAIK none of the IQ Drive options score a SEER above 22.0. That's the result of a quick search at AHRI.

Since you are considering variable speed air source, get a proposal for a Carrier GreenSpeed. The SEER is nearly as high as the IQ drive options and it works with Carrier's Infinity zoning system. Also the HSPF for the Carrier unit is subtantially higher (12+ vs 10) and the lower temp (17*F) heating capacity of the Carrier is much higher - 30k vs 24, more or less.

It has been awhile, but last I checked, IQ drive didn't have a zoning option, and given two stories and a bonus, I'd look for two, possibly even 3 zones. Conventional 3rd party zoning intended for two stage systems is not compatible with variable speed compressors

As to geo, consider how far you are from the sea coast - geo has a unique advantage in that it shields all the expensive bits from damaging win borne sand and salt.

Finally, what tonnage are you looking at? Did one or more bidders perform a Man J load calc? Done right a house that size could come in at 3 tons, but I have no idea as to the glass loads - that's a major consideration.

PS - why insulation between two floors? - none is needed between conditioned spaces
Curt Kinder <br><br>

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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15 Feb 2012 06:22 PM
Remember that when done properly you will have less in down the road costs of replacing a full system instead of just the indoor unit if you go geothermal, you also don't have a noisy outdoor condensor running year round and geothermal will help with your water heating. And as others have alluded to above, an outdoor unit does not like the salty air, you can expect a max life of 15 years vs up to 25 years with a geothermal. Plus I think a geothermal will add more value to the home than a conventional heat pump if you sell in 10 years.
Visit my Youtube channel for product reviews and customer testimonials http://www.youtube.com/user/skyheating1
http://www.welserver.com/WEL0626/
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16 Feb 2012 10:09 AM
ICFHybrid: Where can I get a trustworthy independent analysis? My impression so far is that they're all or nothing type of guys, the iQ drive craps on geo (for our area) while the geo act like everything else is completely inferior and show me brochures with claims of cost savings that might apply to my current 130 year-old house (like the weight loss commercial with the "results are not typical" line).

engineer: Haven't heard of that system yet, the iQ Drive was just brought up by my builder because his HVAC guy has put them in before. I spoke with his guy (who I'm not obligated to go with) and he said they now have iQ Zone (http://iqdrive.net/iqzone.html).

I'm actually over the by Great Dismal Swamp, about 25 miles to the oceanfront with no noticable salt/sand. I understand the concept that items protected from the elements should last longer, but I'm tired of the geo guys telling me that any other system will have to be replaced in 10 years. Our current system is 18 years old and the repair was a new heater core ($800) in '06. Is there anything more substantial than just the industry rule of thumb 10-15yr for conventional and 20-30year for geo?

I know the 4-ton geo did a manual-J, the other two were initial estimates (erring on the side of caution) with a clear intent of performing a manual-J should I pursue it.

Modular homes are designed with an unfinished space above so the ceiling insulation is standard, I wouldn't get much $ back for omitting it so I figured leave it in for noise and to help for zoning when we're empty nesters.

I looked up my utility rates, natural gas is $1.0785/Ccf and $0.1187/kWh. There might be another $1500 rebate for "replacing" my gas furnace (not avail for geo) which might push the delta to $9k.
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16 Feb 2012 10:30 AM
Where can I get a trustworthy independent analysis?
I wish I had an answer for you. The best thing I can tell you is to find an independent energy consultant that isn't trying to sell something. Expect to pay something substantial for it. But, even $1,000, while it may seem like a lot, is really quite reasonable compared to the mistakes one can get talked into by people trying to sell you their goods and services.
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16 Feb 2012 10:22 PM
Just curious, is there a place where one can rent the equip for a blower door test? That's not rocket science to do that.
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16 Feb 2012 10:29 PM
Has it ever occured to anyone that an energy auditor is trying to sell you something? Like home inspectors, some focus on minutae to produce $1,000 worth of paper. Reality is most will point you to the same soft spots from one house to the next and few will size equipment and be responsible for the outcome.
Not suggesting it's a bad servgice, simply stating that it is obvious they are trying to sell something as well.
We partner with an analyst from time to time particularly to help us identify softspots in less common homes (old farm houses etc.) or to identify oppurtunities to reduce equipment size with insulation they costs less than the next ton. Our guy is less than $500 around here for most applications, but HVAC contractor is still responsible for sizing and outcome.
Modular homes usually have a duct chase to the second floor from the basement.
10 years is a fair lifespan for a new ASHP outdoor unit as it runs considerably more than a cooling only condenser, though I have seen 25 year olds. IMHO all bets are off with life expectancy of new multistage equipment (of any kind) as the footprint over ten years old is remarkably small.
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
engineerUser is Offline
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17 Feb 2012 01:00 AM
Posted By blueflamme on 16 Feb 2012 10:09 AM
ICFHybrid: Where can I get a trustworthy independent analysis? My impression so far is that they're all or nothing type of guys, the iQ drive craps on geo (for our area) while the geo act like everything else is completely inferior and show me brochures with claims of cost savings that might apply to my current 130 year-old house (like the weight loss commercial with the "results are not typical" line).

engineer: Haven't heard of that system yet, the iQ Drive was just brought up by my builder because his HVAC guy has put them in before. I spoke with his guy (who I'm not obligated to go with) and he said they now have iQ Zone (http://iqdrive.net/iqzone.html).

I'm actually over the by Great Dismal Swamp, about 25 miles to the oceanfront with no noticable salt/sand. I understand the concept that items protected from the elements should last longer, but I'm tired of the geo guys telling me that any other system will have to be replaced in 10 years. Our current system is 18 years old and the repair was a new heater core ($800) in '06. Is there anything more substantial than just the industry rule of thumb 10-15yr for conventional and 20-30year for geo?

I know the 4-ton geo did a manual-J, the other two were initial estimates (erring on the side of caution) with a clear intent of performing a manual-J should I pursue it.

Modular homes are designed with an unfinished space above so the ceiling insulation is standard, I wouldn't get much $ back for omitting it so I figured leave it in for noise and to help for zoning when we're empty nesters.

I looked up my utility rates, natural gas is $1.0785/Ccf and $0.1187/kWh. There might be another $1500 rebate for "replacing" my gas furnace (not avail for geo) which might push the delta to $9k.

OK, no beachfront sand salt issues. I've seen air source units in service for 20+ years but that is not typical. No comment on geo life span, although keeping the pricey bits indoors has to help.

You have cheap NG, so that figures prominently into choosing among alternatives.

I can't really comment beyond obvious differences in AHRI numbers as to relative advantages of IQ vs Carrier, other than to note that Carrier has been a mainstay of airconditioning for 100+ years.


Curt Kinder <br><br>

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
blueflammeUser is Offline
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17 Feb 2012 09:33 AM
Is there any reliable tool for a homeowner to use to estimate bills? I got one ROI back, he showed my annual geo bill as $391 vs $969 against a 20 SEER 2-stage and a 3.5/3.8 CoP natural gas. He showed the majority of my bill being heating though currently it is electric dominated ($2K vs $725 for total utilities on current house)

I fiddled with the Beopt software last night and the best results I saw weren't much diff b/w a 13 SEER 85%, 15 SEER 90%, 24 SEER 97%, and geo. (from $2300-$2100 counting whole house energy usage and min monthly fees the utilities add on). Again based on a tight highly insulated house with all HVAC within conditioned space. No claim that I'm using the tool right.

Another thought: My current usage shows 2/3 of my bills are electric (and only half of that is from AC for 3 months a year) would it make more sense to go with min SEER (but correctly sized for those humid July/Aug days) and put the $ into solar (which also gets the 30% credit)?
engineerUser is Offline
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17 Feb 2012 09:49 PM
Equivalent full load operating hours can give a rough idea of operating cost.

It is entirely possible that an investment in solar PV and code min SEER vs super efficient geo heat pump may work out, but so much depends on the specifics of your situation that it is virtually impossible to advise unseen from afar.
Curt Kinder <br><br>

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
joe.amiUser is Offline
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18 Feb 2012 08:14 AM
total utility bills muddy the water in op cost conversations.
If you are saying your electric heat bill currently is $2,000 then we can use (divide by) 3.5 COP geo average (which is conservative) and suggest you would get your heat bill down to almost $570.
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
sesmithUser is Offline
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18 Feb 2012 09:31 AM
Can't the manufacturer of the home provide you with a heat loss calculation for the home set up in your area, including some sort of close estimate of air leakage?  They must have engineers in house that can do that.  It would help with your estimates and take some of the guesswork out.  Maybe that's too much to ask, but it seems in this day and age buyers should be able to ask for that information and have some sort of a guarantee that the house meets whatever standard they claim.  Then it's just a case of comparing your various heating/ ac systems to get there.  An estimate from a pv installer in your area could then tell you if that's worth pursuing as well.
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