Question on my DX Geothermal Heat pump.
Last Post 18 Mar 2014 10:09 PM by a0128958. 40 Replies.
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hvac101User is Offline
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28 Feb 2014 01:04 PM
In response to Ivan's post and others in this matter: DX geothermal is as good or better than water based type geothermal systems and has been around for many years. (Actually before water source type geothermal). The American DX system Ivan has is an out of business, obsolete brand that had many good successful and still operating systems as well as some failures just as many, many water source installations and brands did, and continue to have today. Whether DX or water source geothermal let's be open and honest in our talk about geothermal technology as a whole. The bottom line is it comes down to the installing contractor doing their job to assure the job is done correctly from steps A to Z in the entire process. If Ivan spoke to someone experienced and unbiased about all his options on updating the existing DX American DX geothermal system he would of been informed had some feasible choices to consider. There are a number of old American DX installations over 20 years old that have been converted to new compressor units, air handlers and etc. that are working very well to the homeowners and contractors expectations. You can still purchase R-22 DX equipment, R407C, and most newer models are R410a type. Could he of used the existing field and gone to R410a equipment? Not advisable would of been my answer for a number of reasons. In regard to the volume of refrigerant needed for the nominal charge on startup for "Earthlinked" DX systems (the best and largest manufacturer) of this type of geothermal system is 3 pounds per ton of the capacity of the system and adjust from there dependent on the length of the line sets and other factors. Usually never more than 4 to 5 pounds per ton. With today's cost of R410a refrigerant this is not a cost factor for considering DX. Future leaks from the field are far and few if installed properly. Electronic Cathodic Protection systems protect the copper in the ground in the event the soil is acidic in which such conditions are possible but far and few. Bottom line is "Done right works right" whether water source or DX geothermal. Both types have 20 plus year normal life spans and are light years more efficient than air to air systems and any fossil fuel type unit. I'm not new to the HVAC trade (over 26 years) and have been involved with both water base and DX type geothermal systems as well as many brands of fossil fuel and air to air type equipment. No brag, just fact and my opinion.
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02 Mar 2014 09:05 AM
"No brag, just fact and my opinion."
Fact #1 DX is not older than water source which first saw installation in MI for instance in the late 40's early 50's vs (80's/90's for DX). Some Dxer's try to call early water source systems DX because they were open loop, this is a weak argument at best.
Fact #2 American DX is out of business for a reason many of their systems failed. Another group bought the product and continues to fail.
Fact #3 Ivan did speak with experienced people, why would we be unbiased when he asked our advice? Water source is the only way to go geo at this time (and that one since you dug up an old post).
Fact #4 One large DX manufacturer lost it's biggest installer in MI and lost it's award winning distributor. Isn't it interesting that people with years invested and scores of systems in place parted ways with the best and biggest? Both sell water source now.
Fact #4 my ground loops never need cathodic protection.
Fact #5 You might not be new to HVAC but you sound like someone new to geo and newer to DX ('cause you are parroting a DX trainer).
Check out what the DXer's don't want you to talk about (certainly none would talk to me)
http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/13/aft/79941/afv/topic/afpg/3/Default.aspx
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
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hvac101User is Offline
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03 Mar 2014 10:26 AM
Facts or fiction:
A little homework is in order for someone. Let's look at what were listed as facts but were not really correct:

Fact #1: What is older, DX geothermal technology or water source geothermal? Answer: Per very credible 3rd party sources such as Wikipedia, The International Ground Source Heat Pump Association, books in our public libraries on the history of ground source heat pumps all state the same: Robert C. Webber built the first direct exchange(DX) ground source heat pump in the late 1940's. This is documented as the first ground source heat pump ever installed and that water source type geothermal designs came after that. The reference for this statement is listed in Wikipedia under the history of DX geothermal heat pumps and the listed reference source is the International Ground Source Heat Pump Association.

Fact#2: No one is disputing that American Geothermal went out of business. There have been many brands in various types of heating and/or cooling systems that are no longer in business including some water source type manufactures. The reasons why vary. That's the nature of business. Systems fail for various reasons also with the main reason contractor error. Being is business accounts come and go. Your statement of them losing a major client is nothing more than a nature of being in business. I'm sure you have lost a client in the past also. I'm also willing to say that I don't know anyone in business that hasn't switched from one brand to another for some reason or another. That's also the nature of being in business.

Fact#3: "Water Source is the only way to go". From all your posts in this forum as well as some other sources where you have stated your thoughts and opinion it is plain to see you are a dedicated water source guy and certainly are certainly entitled to your opinion and in expressing it. However, your opinion is not necessarily the same opinion as all others in the industry and we reserve the right to express our own. I never said water source was bad or not the way to go or that DX was the only way to go. I stated previously that both, DX and water source were far better than any fossil fuel or air to air type system. I continue to respect both technologies.

Fact #4: I used the Earthlinked manufacturer's name for the following reasons.
A: They are considered the largest manufacturer of DX geothermal type products.
B: They are the most respected and have a history of the most R & D in this type of technology.
C: They hold the most patents in Direct Exchange geothermal technology.
D: They do business in the U.S. as well as 16 different countries.

Fact #5: Newto the geothermal business. As this was directed as a personal statement to me I will address this. In reviewing your website, history and background I can state I've been involved in the geothermal side of the HVAC trade longer than you have. I do not, and have not ever stated I was an expert in the geothermal field and do not have a mechanical engineering degree. I have only the years of in the field experience and continued education experience to rely on and go by. My first experience in water source geothermal was in the early 1990's around 1991 or 1992 and in DX geothermal it was later around 2001 or 2002. I continue to work with both technologies and promote both. There are applications where I sometimes recommend one over another and both work well if designed and installed properly.



geodudeUser is Offline
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03 Mar 2014 01:33 PM
Posted By hvac101 on 03 Mar 2014 10:26 AM
There are applications where I sometimes recommend one over another





In what application do you recommend DX?
joe.amiUser is Offline
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04 Mar 2014 07:43 AM
Fact #1 Forgive me, you cite another failed product. Ok, let's talk first viable system. Not until the 80's did DX come close to viability and any share in the market (what is that number now 2%? 5%?).
#2 I said a major client and distributor. Yes I have switched products before, but we are talking about a couple of major players abandoning a technology altogether not just switching brands.
#3 Water source is the only way to go. DX at this time is an expensive crap shoot. Yes, a consumer may get one of the systems that work, but the odds are stacked heavily against them.
#4 Yes they do a lot of business and might even be the best at DX, that still does not mean DX is a consumers best choice.
#5 Terrific you have many years under your belt, perhaps you are the guy that can explain to us why in all this time (since the late '40's) DX has never bothered working their way into the code books. This shows a lack of commitment by the industry at large. Or perhaps you'd like to take a crack at any of the questions I raise in the thread I offered a link to.

In all my writing on the subject, I haven't suggested that DX isn't a good idea, in fact I have suggested we may all end up there one day.However it's (DX's) champions have not taken care of business. Therefore if a consumer asks for advice I will tell them to go water source.

Perhaps you are one of the good guys and perhaps you have not experienced trouble with DX systems, that's great. I still can't recommend them and won't. I will however as an inspector continue to enforce code and order refrigerent leak detectors where they are called for (though I won't demand a hydrostatic test on the ground loops).

I agree with your remark that "done right, works right" if we are talking about water source. I do not agree that that is true of all DX systems where done right might work right.
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
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hvac101User is Offline
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04 Mar 2014 11:24 AM
Geodude, There are a number of applications where DX geothermal may be preferable over consideration of water source. Those being in tight residential neighborhoods where smaller type drill rigs can be utilized and large drill rigs typically used for water source geothermal drilling are not feasible. For commercial water heating the EPA states DX geothermal is the #1 rated most efficient way to go. Also, (and I know I'll get some hype back on this) if heating BTUH output is a primary concern (like in colder climate areas where we are looking at heat dominant loads) DX usually has better performance in heating output than water source systems. Bottom line is using refrigerant is better technology than using a glycol, water solution and copper piping is over 600% a better conductor than the HDPE type piping used for water source. Before I get some feedback on how much better and longer lasting the HDPE loops are let me say there are many, many cases where copper piping has been in the ground far longer than any HDPE piping has been with no problems. (Hundreds of years) Not my facts, just facts from a little research on-line from credible sources can attest to this or go to your public library and read up. Has there been cases where copper in the ground has posed problems? The answer is yes. Same answer can apply to HDPE piping. Can anyone out there say they have never heard of or seen a leak from HDPE loops? I usually give more merit to information compiled by experts in their respective field than others whom are not. These experts say in most cases copper in the ground does not pose a problem. They also say HDPE loops will last 50 years or more. I'm not the expert and don't claim to be. I just try to do the best I can for everyone I deal with, be open minded, and respectful to both water source and DX technologies. Both have some advantages.
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04 Mar 2014 11:42 AM
As I stated previously, your posts and responses show you are a dedicated water source advocate and that's fine for you and yours. Perhaps there is a little tunnel vision on your part though, within the box type thinking. You seem to be a little arrogant in your replies and your posts seem to give a person the feeling you are attempting to defend and justify yourself and water source geothermal technology where no one is really criticizing you, or water source geothermal. Your opinions are indeed just that, your opinion. Forgive me if I do not agree with all you state. I don't think I wish to continue dialog with you due to your attitude. Forums like this are suppose to be fair for discussion, advice and opinions. You seem to be somewhat short there and like to twist matters to your own best interests and toot your own horn.
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05 Mar 2014 08:55 AM
Hvac 101, you needn't continue dialogue with me I am indifferent. The shortcomings of DX are well documented and like every other DX advocate you ignore the hard questions. I don't feel attacked, nor do I feel I need to defend.
It is not my opinion that DX is a product scarcely recognized by the code it is a fact. It is not my opinion that other products do their work to get themselves in the code, it is a fact. It is a fact that there are applications where a DX system may activate industrial machinary room requirements. It is also a fact that water source can be installed anywhere that DX is but the opposite is not true.
If you bothered to read the link I sent you, I discard many of the common complaints about DX, but I also discard the myths from DXer's (i.e. who cares how efficient copper loops are, its the TC of the ground that dictates performance).
Have you monitoring systems on your DX installations to show us how they are performing. I can show you a study where the monitored DX system performed worse than water source in the same building.

If you would like to point at anything I have "twisted" or where I "toot my horn", I'm interested. I could publicly give you all my background in geo and HVAC but that's your gig not mine.
I'll let my contributions here stand on their own merit.

Do I seem short? I suppose that's true first because I've been asking honest questions of DXer's for years and almost none of you care to address them. I think the industry as a whole lacks transparency and in some cases has built its business on the backs of unweary installers who get in trouble or even bankrupt from it. Also lest you forget it was you that started the entire dialogue criticizing advice given here over a year ago (If Ivan spoke to someone experienced and unbiased......). The obvious implication is that the contributing pros were biased and inexperienced. You are the one who introduced yourself with an attack and toot of your horn.

It also appears you weighed in on this before (or your twin) 2JK on 10JUL13, liked to put everything into one paragraph while boasting 25 years in the business (last year and huh, you have 26 this year). 2JK also liked to state "Those are the facts not just an opinion."

So if you didn't want a dialogue about it, why come back and revive a dead thread? If you don't have an agenda your evil twin does.
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
hvac101User is Offline
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05 Mar 2014 11:06 AM
Mr. Hardin,

You seem to like to quote what an expert you are in geothermal technology. From reading the many posts you have submitted I do not doubt you are very experienced and have a good background in water source geothermal systems. What I don't think is that you are more knowledgeable than the many people involved in R & D of DX geothermal technology are, the many authors that have books published about geothermal, professors teaching mechanical engineering at major universities, the people at the AHRI and Energy Star, the EPA, ASHRAE publication contributors, a number of people with mechanical engineering degrees, not to mention hundred of hundreds of HVAC contractors in this country and many others, and the list goes on. I wonder if you have ever attended a technical training class on DX geothermal technology? Perhaps you should. The technology on DX geothermal has greatly advanced in the last several years and many of your posts refer to older systems and obsolete information that does not pertain to systems built and in use for the last several years. I guess you had some hands on experience with DX geothermal systems? If you haven't had any professional training on DX technology and have had hands on experience with DX you probably shouldn't of been monkeying with something you haven't had training on. Nor should you be quoting what you quote on a subject you don't have any real education and experience on. Our federal government and military uses DX technology in various applications as well as others in various countries. Apparently they must be wrong in their thinking DX is a viable technology and one to be considered over using water source also. DX technology is used for many installation in your home state too. Perhaps not as much as it could be in your immediate service area. I wonder why? I do not and have not condemned water source geothermal nor would I. I only state that DX geothermal is a viable option to consider and has some valid points in comparing the two technologies. I fail to see why you have a problem with that?
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06 Mar 2014 08:49 AM
Understand I have no problem with you personally and I've no problem answering the questions, I just beg somebody in DX answer mine.
Trained in Earthlinked and ESES (the former American). So yes I know what a heat pacer is and know to charge Earthlinked (formerly ECR) by sight glass.
I don't recall saying DX is unviable in theory, I question whether the commitment is there in the industry to make it prime time.
Most of my conversation about DX revolves around the code. If a technology wishes to be taken seriously, first it ought to do the work to find it's way into the code books. If that were addressed most of my other concerns go away.
Joe Hardin
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www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
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06 Mar 2014 10:31 AM
Thank you for your response Joe. That you have gone through training for DX in the past is a credit to you and I respect you for your efforts in doing so. Newer training programs since the introduction of R410a usage systems are much more comprehensive and thorough. There are others in the HVAC field that like to criticize without the background and education to do so. DX technology is getting more and more popular, is gaining marketshare in this country and the rest of the world, and is a good option to be considered in going to geothermal. Great strives are being made by to have DX technology be more recognized and I'm sure you'll see it in your code book in the near future. With past advancements in DX technology, recent ones, and more soon to come I think you'll see the recognition this technology really deserves and which manufacturer should be recognized for their efforts in making this happen.
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06 Mar 2014 11:01 AM
Posted By hvac101 on 06 Mar 2014 10:31 AM
... DX technology is getting more and more popular, is gaining marketshare in this country ...

I don't believe this.  Instead I think this is wishful and/or hopeful thinking on your part, and is in fact your agenda to advance DX technology.

Feel free to cite well respected sources that use quantified data that makes the same assertions as you are.

Best regards,

Bill


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American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
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Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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06 Mar 2014 11:51 AM
I have no choice but to wait and see. I think there is yet evolution to take place for all systems. It is becomming high end industry practice to monitor systems, are you aware of any monitored DX systems that demonstrate performance?
Bill, I think we could make a case for DX gaining market share (Nordic jumped back in) and water source gaining market share and airsource gaining market share........we all wish enough to use the numbers to make it true.
Joe Hardin
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We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
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06 Mar 2014 12:47 PM
You are sure entitled to your beliefs Bill just as I'm entitled to mine. My agenda is to advance all geothermal technology and I do believe in DX also just as some others do. Let's see what the near future holds. There's an old saying that "Something's in the Air" in this case maybe it's more proper to say "Something's in the ground!" I wish all people promoting geothermal well no matter what type as I firmly believe it is the future for heating/cooling & water heating to move away from inefficient fossil fuel equipment and inefficient air to air type A/C & HP systems as well as most all types of fossil fuel & straight electric water heating devices. Best to you Bill!
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16 Mar 2014 11:12 PM
Posted By Alton on 11 Mar 2013 10:12 AM
I love the concept of DX.  What could be neater than burying the refrigerant lines?



This issue is that then the refrigerant lines are so good in extracting the heat from the surrounding soil that the ground cannot keep up. The lack of thermal conductivity is beneficial for the flawless operation of water source systems. That is the fundamental issue with DX systems, Great concept, but the ground is the needle ear, and results in a high refrigerant pressure and short life expectancy, and inefficient operation.
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17 Mar 2014 07:45 PM
When the field installation guidelines are followed for theoriper spacing of the earthloops and the ground temperature specifications for the region there are no problems.
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17 Mar 2014 08:32 PM
Posted By hvac101 on 17 Mar 2014 07:45 PM
When the field installation guidelines are followed for theoriper spacing of the earthloops and the ground temperature specifications for the region there are no problems.


Of course there are problems. The conductivity of the copper pipe is far superior to the ground (much more superior than HDPE pipes). DX systems are connected to a much smaller mass of thermal storage (e.g. ground compared to water source systems. Thus they result in a much higher temperature differential between refrigerant and ground, plus in a much colder ground surrounding the lines for the same amount of BTUs extracted. This all will result in higher refrigerant pressure, resulting in higher operational costs and lower life expectancy. And this is what we see in the field.....It is a conceptual issue with DX, namely that the conductivity of the copper is so good that the ground cannot keep up.
www.buffalogeothermalheating.com
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18 Mar 2014 10:06 AM
Yes, I agree with you that copper is far superior for conductivity and the amount of BTU'S transferred and/or extracted is also greater with DX technology and in how it works. That is why less footage of loops are required than in using HDPE piping. With proper sizing of the system for the space the system is to serve, and if the ground loop installation guidelines are followed maintaining the required spacing between the loops for enough overall total ground mass to serve the system the ground temperature does not change that much. Installed systems with temperature sensors in the ground have shown this. Yes, the ground temperature at the end of the heating season has changed several degrees. That's not a problem as DX systems are working fine in installations in Alaska and Canada. I'm sure you would agree they are much colder climate areas with a colder ground temperature to work with than you have in your service area. The New England states are one of the areas in the U.S that have many DX systems as they work great in colder climates and there are many oil and propane fired heating systems in that section of the U.S. and homeowners with incredibly high heating costs. Low ground temperatures, even freezing of the ground has been experienced in some installations due to someone not doing something correct. Under sizing of the system causing excessive run time is a good example. Incorrect spacing of the earth loops or distance between the fields are also good examples. If total earth mass to be utilized is a concern, adding a little extra spacing between earth loops and/or fields to create an overall larger total earth mass for the system(s) to draw from for extracting heat as well as for heat transfer from the structure to the ground in the cooling mode can be done. Efficiency without performance and providing of comfort is not a good system and does not result in a happy customer. This applies to any type of system.
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18 Mar 2014 02:11 PM
Posted By hvac101 on 17 Mar 2014 07:45 PM
When the field installation guidelines are followed for theoriper spacing of the earthloops and the ground temperature specifications for the region there are no problems.

my experience has been just the opposite sad to say.  I paid dearly to get out of the DX business.
Dewayne Dean

<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system
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18 Mar 2014 08:03 PM
Posted By hvac101 on 18 Mar 2014 10:06 AM
That is why less footage of loops are required than in using HDPE piping.


Less footage of loops equals less footage of ground contact. I dont think loop spacing would make up for less footage of loops. It sounds like to do DX in a Heating Dominant Climate. you need to oversize. That might not be a problem if the compressors are VRV. Are they?
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