Keep or Remove Geo?
Last Post 04 Jul 2014 06:42 PM by tamar. 234 Replies.
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jonrUser is Offline
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19 Oct 2013 10:52 AM
At some point you need to see documentation of all the thermostats.


tamarUser is Offline
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19 Oct 2013 11:14 AM
What is the concern about a heat exchanger in the buffer tank? What would be the preferred method of the W2W heating the buffer tank?


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19 Oct 2013 11:43 AM
Posted By jonr on 19 Oct 2013 10:52 AM
At some point you need to see documentation of all the thermostats.


Agreed. The packaged controls for the high-temp will be utilized, and the question has been raised if our fancy Honeywell stat can handle the rest.


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19 Oct 2013 03:28 PM
Posted By tamar on 19 Oct 2013 11:14 AM
What is the concern about a heat exchanger in the buffer tank? What would be the preferred method of the W2W heating the buffer tank?


Every time you are going through a heat exchanger you loose about 10 degree F. You need to make the water inside the heatexchanger pipes hotter than the tank by at least 10 degrees in order to transfer heat into the tank. Plus the heatexchanger must be very large, meaning the tank will be very expensive. Remember, high temperatures are the enemy for efficiency. I have never seen a heat exchanger in the buffer tank, geo temps are not high enough to transfer enough heat via a heat exchanger in an efficient way. That is why you pipe the line directly into the tank. No need to separate the circuits.


www.buffalogeothermalheating.com
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19 Oct 2013 03:33 PM
Posted By tamar on 18 Oct 2013 04:10 PM
1) The load calculations are questionable.

I agree they seem really high. I have asked for the report. The calc included a 1400 sq ft basement and a 150 sq ft 4 season porch that don't get any hot water heat.

2) I have trouble to understand the strategy to do the entire load of the house with the 3 ton and supplement with a 175 BTU/H boiler.

This is based on the premise that the "capacity of the geothermal heat exchanger" and was calculated using Geoanalyst. As the outcome was stated to me, we have enough capacity for cooling but not for heating. We need backup heat, and Xcel gives us favorable rates if the back up can carry 100% of the load, whether or not we ever use it.

3.Trouble to understand why the loopfield only supports 1/3 of the heating load. My understanding is that you have 6 boreholes with 205 ft depth. In my neck of the woods this supports 9 tons.

Could it be 1/3 of the worst case days? Our permit calls for 6 holes, 200 ft, 3/4" piping, anticipated depth to bedrock 147

4) Having said that why they don't have the radiators and the 3 ton doing the base load, and then supplement it with the 5 split. Yes you can run them together when the piping inside is replaced.

3 ton will do the base load, but with 15 GPM the thought is the 3 ton and 5 ton units cannot run at the same time

NEW information, I am now hearing that they hesitated to give me the schematics, which were supposed to be a beginning of sketching out the possibilities and making sure our installer didn't cut corners. NOTHING is going to happen until we have an agreed upon "for construction" version.

Not even shown on schematics is the need to provide 5x the return air to the SpacePak and provide at least 5 more ducts. And, darn it, they're going to give me a welserver monitoring package, if I get my way.

Doc, you haven't steered me wrong yet, so I'm taking everything you give me and figuring out how to ask it sweetly.


Could be an issue when the bedrock is 147ft down, maybe he calculated with a different ground conductivity. We will see the Analyst report.


www.buffalogeothermalheating.com
tamarUser is Offline
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19 Oct 2013 07:04 PM
Posted By docjenser on 19 Oct 2013 03:28 PM
Posted By tamar on 19 Oct 2013 11:14 AM
What is the concern about a heat exchanger in the buffer tank? What would be the preferred method of the W2W heating the buffer tank?


Every time you are going through a heat exchanger you loose about 10 degree F. You need to make the water inside the heatexchanger pipes hotter than the tank by at least 10 degrees in order to transfer heat into the tank. Plus the heatexchanger must be very large, meaning the tank will be very expensive. Remember, high temperatures are the enemy for efficiency. I have never seen a heat exchanger in the buffer tank, geo temps are not high enough to transfer enough heat via a heat exchanger in an efficient way. That is why you pipe the line directly into the tank. No need to separate the circuits.


It's sinking in. I've been out on the boiler buddy website, and it looks like in at least one example they have the boiler supplementing the geo through the coil (I know that's not what's being proposed for my house by anyone, just an observation). We'll see what Monday brings.


tamarUser is Offline
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04 Jun 2014 07:49 PM
Someone just recently requested that I review this thread, and so I did. I am once more amazed at all the help and advice that I got here! Thanks again!


ChrisJUser is Offline
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04 Jun 2014 08:37 PM
Any progress ?


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13 Jun 2014 07:18 PM
Posted By ChrisJ on 04 Jun 2014 08:37 PM
Any progress ?


I hope to be able to report progress soon. I can't believe that this is not yet over. My progress update may be brief, depending on what happens in the next week.


tamarUser is Offline
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28 Jun 2014 12:14 AM
Update: My contractor has refused mediation AND/OR arbitration through the BBB. Amazingly, this does not hurt their A+ rating with the BBB.

I am posting this for other consumers who may be tempted to trust BBB accreditation as offering a level of confidence and/or protection. Not always.....


Palace GeothermalUser is Offline
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30 Jun 2014 06:23 PM
IMO BBB is a scam


Dewayne Dean

<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system
joe.amiUser is Offline
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02 Jul 2014 11:18 AM
The BBB is in business fro the BBB. I have never joined/never been impressed with them, Angie's list etc. All want some of the money I get from my satisfied customers. I get word of mouth for free.


Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
tamarUser is Offline
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02 Jul 2014 10:40 PM
The things I've learned too late....

On a happier note, I got a call from the VP of the MN BBB after posting a truthful review on their Facebook page. Perhaps we will connect and at the very least my contractor will get an appropriate ding to their rating. I am ever hopeful until proven wrong, I guess.


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04 Jul 2014 11:32 AM
Yes will the BBB accept binding arbitration when the complaint is about them?

" I am ever hopeful until proven wrong, I guess."

That sounds resolute


Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
tamarUser is Offline
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04 Jul 2014 06:42 PM
LOL... You know the old saying: "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me"? I keep wondering what comes after that.....


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