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Ecobee Thermostats
Last Post 06 Aug 2015 08:02 PM by a0128958. 55 Replies. |
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jonr
Senior Member
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| 05 Nov 2013 12:28 PM |
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> 3) adjust temperature to account for cold walls. Ie, for equal comfort, you need a higher indoor temp when it is 0F outside than 50F outside.
3) is supported. There are two input channels to bring in external temp measurements or on/off logic signals. And automation actions to choose from in response to whatever's coming in on the 2 channels.
To do it right, this requires an analog response. Ie, as it gets colder outside, the building should gradually get slightly warmer (air temp to account for reduced MRT). The ratio should be adjustable based on how well the building is insulated (lots of glass has a huge effect). These thermostats make a big deal about the savings available from setback. But evidently they have no mechanism to assure that they will deliver any particular temperature at the time you get out of bed (or arrive at the office).
I suggest that they provide a software interface (API) such that people can write their own code to fix these shortcomings.
It's not clear to me how much of the above can be done. |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
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| 05 Nov 2013 03:06 PM |
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Posted By jonr on 05 Nov 2013 12:28 PM
> 3) adjust temperature to account for cold walls. Ie, for equal comfort, you need a higher indoor temp when it is 0F outside than 50F outside.
3) is supported. There are two input channels to bring in external temp measurements or on/off logic signals. And automation actions to choose from in response to whatever's coming in on the 2 channels.
To do it right, this requires an analog response. Ie, as it gets colder outside, the house should gradually get slightly warmer (air temp to account for reduced MRT). The ratio should be adjustable based on how well the house is insulated (lots of glass has a huge effect).
These thermostats make a big deal about the savings available from setback. But evidently they have no mechanism to assure that they will deliver any particular temperature at the time you get out of bed (or arrive at the office).
I suggest that they provide a software interface (API) such that people can write their own code to fix these shortcomings.
It's not clear to me how much of the above can be done. Ok on number 3. Currently, and my guess is probably always for this subject, the capability available will always be limited to a step function set point temp change capability in response to an input temp measurement. Note that I was incorrect on number of channels available to bring in external temperatures. It's 4, not 2. Any, though, require using the more expensive touch control version tstat (residential or commercial), and require adding the remote sensor module. WRT marketing comments on savings from setback: I looked at Ecobee's marketing material, along with Honeywell's and White-Rodgers'. All take considerable liberty to assume that a setback function isn't used unless it's their particular tstat. WRT option to ensure temp is at a certain point at a certain time: Ecobee tstats do have this option. There are 2 options to choose from: (1) change set point at a certain time of day, or (2) change set point such that by a certain time the new set point is satisfied. Took me a while to find this. WRT providing a s/w API: Ecobee does. You can write your own web interface screens and/or smart phone interfaces, if you're so inclined. I didn't evaluate the robustness or capabilities of the API. Best regards, Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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jonr
Senior Member
Posts:5341
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| 05 Nov 2013 03:09 PM |
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Thanks for the info. |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 06 Nov 2013 07:25 AM |
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There are definately shortcomings to the Ecobee stat, however my feeling is the only thing worse is everything else.
While the don't tout it, the logging capabilities are very cool, and the installation I think less clunky than a WEL (though less comprehensive). While I can't measure things like amps and such, I can measure temps and watch cycle times to determine correct operation of the equipment and monitor balance points.
I was able to pinpoint when a unit quit the other day which is often useful in troubleshooting. |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 06 Nov 2013 09:59 AM |
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Posted By joe.ami on 06 Nov 2013 07:25 AM
There are definately shortcomings to the Ecobee stat, however my feeling is the only thing worse is everything else.
While the don't tout it, the logging capabilities are very cool, and the installation I think less clunky than a WEL (though less comprehensive). While I can't measure things like amps and such, I can measure temps and watch cycle times to determine correct operation of the equipment and monitor balance points.
I was able to pinpoint when a unit quit the other day which is often useful in troubleshooting. Joe, agreed. And thanks for the posting a while back that triggered me to look at these tstats. I've got coming up an indoor sports complex facility project, and a church facility project, where I plan to use the Ecobee tstats. Both ownership groups will save a lot of energy related money simply by having a central means to monitor/control the tstats such that tstats left running for unoccupied areas will be a thing of the past. In past years I've had to contract with companies that provide on site or remote energy management systems to manage tstat control, at $10 - 30K for the system. The Ecobee tstats eliminate this expense, which is very attractive. I wouldn't be planning to use the Ecobee tstats if it hadn't been for your posting. Thanks again! There's no comparison when it comes to logging capability between the Ecobee tstats and the WEL. The Ecobee system is very limited in comparison. But, let's be fair. The two product offerings are aimed at completely different markets. The Ecobee is aimed at HVAC control with network connectivity to a Web browser and a smart phone. The WEL can't do HVAC control in any manner - in fact it can't do control at all. In fact, for the included price of an Ecobee tstat, the availability of a 72 hour data log of really almost every HVAC parameter you'd want I think is invaluable. It looks to me that if you were to standardize on using Ecobee tstats, for every trouble call you get from a customer, you can first look at the Ecobee's logged data, gain a good idea of what may really be wrong, and thus have a better chance that you've got the truck stocked with the right parts, eliminating costly second visit repair situations. Ecobee's pricing strategy, of not requiring a monthly charge, makes it possible to install these tstats everywhere you've got a new customer, at probably not much greater expense, noting wholesale pricing of the Ecobee tstats. For each of these customers, you've got 7x24 diagnostic data all of the time, and, accessible without going to the customer premises. On a onesy twosy basis (up to perhaps 20 or so), I can see where these tstats are 'the holy grail' that enable increased revenue and lowered internal costs of repair. IMO, it's once you get past 20 or so for a customer, where I'd be reluctant to be exposed to random firmware updates - which at the moment is the only significant short coming of the Ecobee tstats. Again, IMO. Best regards, Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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AndrewY
New Member
Posts:4
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| 06 Nov 2013 10:29 PM |
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I have three ecobee units, 2 of the Smart, and 1 of the Smart-si units. The Smart units are controlling airsource heat pumps which are hanging on to life and held together with spit and bailing wire. I purchased the Smart units in preparation for a DIY Geothermal upgrade, but went ahead and hooked them up to the old heat-pumps in the meanwhile. I've only had them for a month, but the alert functionality has been quite useful even in that short amount of time. A few days after installing the units, I received a warning when out of town that the aux heat had been running on the upstairs unit even though the outside temperature was in the 50s. Logging in to the web interface while sitting on an Amtrak train, and seeing that the usage graphs pretty much told me the fan wasn't working, and once I got home, was able to determine that the blower motor had died. A week or so later, I received an alert about excessive-runtime on the downstairs unit aux heat. I was able to determine that the outdoor unit wasn't generating heat, so was able to disable it in software.
I signed up for a developer account so that I could get access to the API. I program Crestron automation systems, so had some thought that I would interface the ecobees to my home system for testing. The API is all JSON based, which is a bit cumbersome from a Crestron point of view, but not unsurmountable, yet seemed to be quite functional. I doubt it would enable the precise control that jonr was wanting, it seems more geared for setting schedules, setpoints, that sort of thing.
I have the remote sensor module on order, to enable me to hook up temperature sensors to monitor geothermal EWT and LWT, and such. I do wish the system kept track of more than 3 days of data. I'm not sure how much I'd be willing to pay for this storage were that even an option, but I feel like I'd be willing to pay a small annual fee for the extra storage.
All in all - I've been quite pleased so far with ecobee. I'm considering deploying them at my office to allow better monitoring of the systems, and my boss had two units on order for his house.
A |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 06 Nov 2013 10:41 PM |
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Andrew, good write up. Thanks! My experience is similar. Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 07 Nov 2013 07:06 AM |
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Bill for church's and such you can set permanent off peak temperatures and set the hold to 1 or 2 hours so it automatically returns after events.
Andrew you can get an excel spread sheet of the entire history, not just 3 days. When you look at your history, pick any day or number of days you like. From a quick snapshot perspective, more than 3 days can be overwhelming. |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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AndrewY
New Member
Posts:4
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| 07 Nov 2013 08:17 AM |
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I had seen the Excel download, but hadn't realized that it covered a more expansive time period than that shown in the web interface, thanks! There are a few features that I'd love to see:
* Selectable time-frame for the web interface for the HomeIQ page, that way you could zoom into a specific day, or time period. I realize that the data is stored in 5 minute increments, so granularity isn't that great, but being able to zoom would be nice. Being able to adjust the high and low temperature on the display would be nice too. I'd probably be happy with 1 day, 3 day buttons.
* Simplified API for lighterweight queries like current temperature and setpoint.
* User control of firmware upgrades. Currently, these seem to push out automatically when there's a new update, but if your unit is installed between firmware updates, you have to call ecobee to trigger the change. Being able to disable updates would make my control systems / IT background happy
* Make screen presses (optionally) work even when the display was in standby. Currently, if the screen goes dim due to inactivity, you have to press it once to wake it up, then again to press what you want. At the default inactivity brightness, the screen is bright enough to comprehend what's being displayed, so the double-tap feels a bit awkward.
* Allow the weather page to (optionally) act as a screen-saver of sorts, when the unit goes to standby on the display.
A
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 07 Nov 2013 09:48 AM |
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Posted By joe.ami on 07 Nov 2013 07:06 AM
Bill for church's and such you can set permanent off peak temperatures and set the hold to 1 or 2 hours so it automatically returns after events.
Andrew you can get an excel spread sheet of the entire history, not just 3 days. When you look at your history, pick any day or number of days you like. From a quick snapshot perspective, more than 3 days can be overwhelming. Joe, thanks. WRT setting permanent off peak temps: yep, works great. WRT setting hold time periods: yep, works great too. Although least amount of time option is 2 hours (maybe 1 hour is on residential version of tstat - I'm using commercial versions). WRT more than 3 days of history: I find this works too. Parenthetically, 5 minute 'chunks' is nice, versus the 1 minute (user selectable) sampling periods for the WEL. Plus I like the equipment status information that gets put into the Ecobee spread sheet, particularly noting that you don't have to do anything to get it included. Best regards, Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 07 Nov 2013 09:53 AM |
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Posted By AndrewY on 06 Nov 2013 10:29 PM
... I have the remote sensor module on order, to enable me to hook up temperature sensors to monitor geothermal EWT and LWT, and such.
Andrew, please let me know what temp sensors you order for EWT and LWT measuring. The usual 1-wire technology sensors I use with the Web Energy Logger aren't compatible with the Ecobee product line. Also, I want do the same for EAT and LAT, to see how the Ecobee does this function as compared to the WEL. Plus I want to see what kind of alarming is available with the Ecobee for unusual EAT/LAT/Delta-T situations. If you have a recommendation for duct mounted air temp sensors that are compatible with the Ecobee, I'd appreciate a comment here. Lastly, if you or anyone needs another Ecobee Remote Sensor Module, I inadvertently ended up with an extra one. Brand New, in box, never hooked up, etc. I'll sell it for $75, including shipping. Many thanks! Best regards, Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 07 Nov 2013 10:12 AM |
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Posted By AndrewY on 07 Nov 2013 08:17 AM
...
* User control of firmware upgrades. Currently, these ... push out automatically when there's a new update, but if your unit is installed between firmware updates, you have to call ecobee to trigger the change. Being able to disable updates would make my control systems / IT background happy
* Make screen presses (optionally) work even when the display was in standby. Currently, if the screen goes dim due to inactivity, you have to press it once to wake it up, then again to press what you want. At the default inactivity brightness, the screen is bright enough to comprehend what's being displayed, so the double-tap feels a bit awkward.
Andrew, your comments are helpful. Thanks! I noticed the same thing WRT double button push / screen touch needed when units are in standby. WRT firmware updates: indeed I did not have any trouble requesting firmware updates to be 'pushed' to my tstat. In fact, one of my commercial version tstats had the original (version 2) firmware on it, and I jumped all the way to current firmware, without any problems. In a commercial environment where there's 20+ tstats for a customer, I'm uncomfortable enough with Ecobee's business strategy of random firmware updates such that I'm looking for alternatives. Today for example I'm going to visit with a sales person for EnTouch Controls. This looks to be another product that tries to incorporate an Energy Management System into the tstat, and has some mix of WEL-like logging capabilies. Looks to be more expensive that Ecobee, commercial focused only, and with a different product distribution channel focus. Best regards, Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 07 Nov 2013 07:53 PM |
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Posted By Bill Neukranz on 07 Nov 2013 10:12 AM
... In a commercial environment where there's 20+ tstats for a customer, I'm uncomfortable enough with Ecobee's business strategy of random firmware updates such that I'm looking for alternatives. Today for example I'm going to visit with a sales person for EnTouch Controls. This looks to be another product that tries to incorporate an Energy Management System into the tstat, and has some mix of WEL-like logging capabilies... Learned all about EnTouch Controls product offering today: 1. Same firmware update strategy - no control available at end-thermostat to accept/not-accept firmware updates. Perhaps this is industry standard and you just have to deal with this, regardless of vendor. 2. Tstats connectable 3 ways via: WiFi, Ethernet, Cellular (takes a SIM card) 3. Web portal is divided into an 'included with the purchase' capability, and a 'monthly fee' more advanced capability. Uncertain at this time what features are supported for each version. Data collection/display is definitely in the 'must pay monthly fee' version of Web portal. 4. Power/Energy monitoring built in to product, like Ecobee, but done in different manner. Ecobee gets info from Zigbee enabled service entrance meters. EnTouch gets info from current transformers installed in breaker panel, connected to a 'TED like' unit also in panel that transmits data via Zigbee (and thus avoids powerline noise challenges that TED has). 5. Lighting control also built in to product, like Ecobee, but focused at different power level. Ecobee is focused on 'per lamp' control with a Zigbee device inserted between lamp plug and outlet. EnTouch is focused on lighting circuits using Zigbee communicated to contactors located at panel. 6. EnTouch is down to 2 year warranty (versus Ecobee at 3 and White-Rodgers and Honeywell at five). 7. Different sales channels: Ecobee available in retail and distributor markets - EnTouch only through distributors. Best regards, Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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AndrewY
New Member
Posts:4
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| 07 Nov 2013 08:14 PM |
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Wired Ethernet would be a plus in my book - I try to avoid wireless whenever possible, though I would say that WiFi connectivity on the ecobee products have been very stable. Since you can tell ecobee to trigger firmware updates, I wonder if there's a way to have them block them too.
ecobee has a very strange sales channel in my opinion. While they are available through online non-contractor retail channels, including Amazon, ecobee claims those sales aren't really supported and that sales should be made through distributors and contractors. This irks me, since I hate several layers of middlemen in the pricing equation, but since that's the way the HVAC industry seems to sell on the whole, I'm sure it's here to stay. As an 'ecobee Preferred Contractor', I'm supposed to respond to sales inquiries in a set timeframe. It seems unlikely that I'd be able to ever sell one, when my selling price would pretty much need to be list if I wanted to make any money, since my cost from a distributer is above even the Amazon price! It's not like the units are particularly hard to install, or configure. The Smart model does have the separate relay box and thermostat, which did require a bit of rewiring, and thus probably puts its installation past the capability of your average homeowner, but the Smart Si model wired like any other thermostat, including Nest.
To me, the whole lighting control is a non starter. Since part of my background is in theatrical and installed lighting systems, I find the lighting integration in these products to be way too simplistic, but I readily acknowledge my geekitude in this regard.
Andrew |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 08 Nov 2013 08:13 AM |
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"WRT setting hold time periods: yep, works great too. Although least amount of time option is 2 hours (maybe 1 hour is on residential version of tstat - I'm using commercial versions)."
I don't honestly recall, I don't have one in front of me. Versus never dialing down an extra hour is nothing.
Andrew, I pay something around the Amazon price and charge almost double for the product delivered, installed and warrantied. I do not make money if I deliver and install stuff for a hundred dollar bill. Folks are free to install it themselves or pay a fair markup plus trip and time. The last Ecobee referral featured a home where they neglected to tell me the one unit was in an attic and virtually inaccessible. Since my preference is the Smart models (permits me to employ 4 wire on my geo retro jobs) I had to get to this thing......and of course it was a nice hot July day....
I see most of the concerns about the Ecobee is a few things it doesn't do. I agree it has a few warts, but I still have found nothing I prefer. |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 08 Nov 2013 03:39 PM |
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Posted By joe.ami on 08 Nov 2013 08:13 AM
... I see most of the concerns about the Ecobee is a few things it doesn't do. I agree it has a few warts, but I still have found nothing I prefer. Yep. My conclusion too. From this point forward I'm using Ecobee tstats (and some WiFi repeaters when I have buildings that don't have WiFi 'wall to wall.' Best regards, Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 10 Nov 2013 07:39 AM |
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Two updates:
1. Ecobee tstats do use outside temp as one of its algorithm inputs to determine when to actually start heating or cooling in order to be at scheduled heat or cool setpoint at the scheduled time.
On Nov. 2nd I commented that the tstats don't use weather information for any control purposes. That was incorrect. (I did correct the Nov. 2nd posting.)
2. Contrary to all of the download files available at Ecobee's website, the non-touch Si version of the tstat (commercial and residential) does accommodate remote temp sensors. The documentation will say 'dry contact only.' But the two input ports can also be configured to accept industry standard 10K NTC temp sensors.
What this means is that you don't have to purchase the more expensive touch versions in order to have remote temp sensing, and automation associated with the remote sensing.
Best regards,
Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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frankpc
New Member
Posts:3
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| 12 Nov 2013 03:36 PM |
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Good info on this thread.
We've lived with two Ecobee touch screen stats since our Geo systems were installed in May 2013. I'll add some general thoughts from a user perspective.
- The touch screens on our stats are tough to use. The "balloons" for picking heat or cool and the temperature adjustments are difficult.
- The ability to touch an icon and get weather information has proved more useful than I anticipated.
- The data logging/spreadsheet creation is a great tool.
- The "Home IQ" information seems pretty bogus based on the information they have about our systems.
- If the Ecobee servers are not reachable, then you don't have remote control of your stat. Even if your stats are still on line and connected to your local network.
- There is a fairly active Google group set up for Ecobee questions. Ecobee employees do participate and discuss future enhancements.
- The Ecobee documentation is lacking.
I too would be interested in reporting additional information from my heat pumps (i.e EWT) through the Ecobee.
Thanks,
Frank
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AndrewY
New Member
Posts:4
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| 12 Nov 2013 04:12 PM |
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When trying to change temperatures, my instint is to grab the bubble showing the temperature, but as best I can tell, you actually need to touch the little slider. I also have gotten burned a few times when after grabbing the temperature and setting it, and walking away, then missing the pop-up that happens (not instantly, but after a few seconds) asking about when you want the system to go back to normal. It seems like if you don't answer that question, it throws out your temperature change. I know I could change to a default answer, but I'd rather be asked. 90% of the time, I think I would be better served if there was something like a 'fast forward' button to trigger the next temperature change - like I get home from work a few hours early. My RSM is supposed to arrive this week, it'll be interesting to get it hooked up to measure some of these other parameters. I'll keep the group posted.
A |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 12 Nov 2013 10:17 PM |
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Every time I program an ecobee I grab the stylus out of my hand held because you are correct it does not have fat finger friendly technology. |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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