Does Geothermal work during very cold winters?
Last Post 13 Jun 2014 08:29 PM by airtrackinc. 58 Replies.
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smarthomesUser is Offline
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12 May 2014 05:10 PM
Hey Mike,

I'm a professional from Ontario Canada, with a lot of experience all over Canada. My views do not agree with others here. I have learned to agree to disagree with them.

I design horizontal loops to have entering water temperatures of 34-38 degrees. In my opinion anything less is undersized and my cause more issues with equipment later on down the road.

We have had Geothermal units installed here in Canada that have lasted over 30 years. Most of the principles systems are designed on this website come from books that are 20-30 years old. We have learned so much more. (here comes my yearly lashing) I read every post on here and have for years but selectively. So selectively ever post requires a new user, as I keep forgetting my username/password.

Our systems are sized 100%, with Emergency heat, not auxiliary heat like some here are trying to talk you into. If you ever talk to anyone who says Geothermal can't heat your house... the contractor used the same thinking that many here will push on you. Fact is in ontario we have some of the highest KWH rates in North America. Geothermal is still the best way to go, when comparing straight electric, propane, and oil. You are making the right choice for your home. Our customers were used to around $200 per month with our philosophy. I serviced 47 units that our (now closed with many pending lawsuits due to undersizing) climate master distributor with average bills of $600+ per month. DO NOT SIZE FOR AUXILIARY! for the money you are spending for your system going up in sizing is far less cost long term than sizing down with auxiliary. In a technicality you will run your unit longer in first stage as well., saving you money in our long heating seasons.

According to a climatmeaster TTV 6 ton. with ground loop second stage is 54100 btu/h according to CSA448/CGC (Canadian GeoExchange Coalition) Standards would be ok to be installed covering the 70% of your heat loss at 72.1%
According to a Climatemaster TTV 5 Ton, with ground loop second stage is 48000 btu/h according to CSA448/CGC standards this is NOT ok to install covering 64% of your heat loss. This is against best practices and does not meet CSA448 and would warrant a lawsuit.

According to GeoSmart Premium G 6 ton, with ground loop second stage is 54400 btu/h according to CSA448/CGC standards would be ok covering 72.5% of your heat loss.
According to GeoSmart Premium G 5 Ton, with ground loop second stage is 47000 btu/h according to CSA448/CGC standards this is NOT ok to install covering 63% of your heat loss.

In either case with Climatemaster or GeoSmart unit with the 6 ton you meet the requirements of CSA448 and CGC standards. Either one is capable of heating your home, but may require some auxiliary heat. To get the most you should have arguably 7 tons at your home unless you do a better job of insulating. As I said earlier I prefer to size without the use of auxiliary, and just for emergency but may be your only option with your current heat loss, and keep it cost effective as there is no manufacture in North America that makes a 7 ton forced air unit.

Contact me if you'd like more information and we can have a private conversation (trust me saves the public lashing.) BTW I have overseen over 10,000 installations in Canada. Last winter none of my customers had a problem not heating their home. Not in Ontario, Not in Manitoba, and Not in Saskatchewan. (Manitoba/Saskatchewan for 4 weeks straight seen -40 Celsius during the day, -60 Celsius at night).

No where in Canada would someone advise you to put a 2 ton unit in a 4,000 sq ft home (I understand he's not advising you, but people read this so don't get any crazy ideas). you would not even heat the bathroom in Canada with that.
joe.amiUser is Offline
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13 May 2014 09:34 AM
Well let's see Ed Lohrenz works out of Manitoba. He literally wrote the book for CGD (certified geo designers) he has a little experience in CA and internationally himself. http://www.geoptimize.ca/about.html

He also suggests that you don't design for 100% of the load. He has written extensively about right sizing, and lower first cost.

You preemptively suggest you will get attacked, yet you must know you are going to be corrected when you:
1) write annonomously and you're a first time poster.
2) offer bad information. A climatemaster TE64 offers 51,442 btus which would be closer to 69% of the load in this code minimum house. Wouldn't a little extra insulation offer the better value here.
3) offer no supporting data. have you monitored any of your systems?
4) suggest minimum EWT of 34-38F that would add greater first cost with very little operating cost savings. No industry standard suggests this
5) more math trouble as 7 tons would not cover 100% of the load (it offers about 72MBH)

"No where in Canada would someone advise you to put a 2 ton unit in a 4,000 sq ft home (I understand he's not advising you, but people read this so don't get any crazy ideas). you would not even heat the bathroom in Canada with that."

Why? what's the heat loss.

"Most of the principles systems are designed on this website come from books that are 20-30 years old. We have learned so much more. (here comes my yearly lashing) I read every post on here and have for years but selectively. So selectively ever post requires a new user, as I keep forgetting my username/password."

So selectively you've missed a bunch of innovation. There is much discussion here of optimizing our systems through monitoring and better design. 100% loaders are in the stone age, not folks who design in auxiliary.

I suggest you support your assertions. I also think you should monitor your equipment and get with the times. Finally I would suggest no one call you for advice as what you've offered already flies in the face of advice offered by industry leaders world wide.

See, no public lashing, just facts contrary to your assertions.
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
smarthomesUser is Offline
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13 May 2014 12:09 PM
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smarthomesUser is Offline
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13 May 2014 12:17 PM
I don't know why this is bunching together rather than keep my spacing especially when my last post didn't. Sorry I'm not going to attack you or others. I know Ed and yes he can be knowledgeable and has done a lot for the industry on both sides of the border but don't personally agree with his designs. I know of a lot of problems in Manitoba. My intentions are not to personally attack him, yourself Joe, or anyone else here. Ed had input into CGC book, but didn't write it by himself. Things there didn't end very good for him either, but that's not a topic i'm going to bring into here. I'm agreeing to disagree with your philosophy. There's a reason why my supplier is largest in Canada. They don't under size. Joe right off climatemaster website here is what they publish for closed ground loop systems

http://www.climatemaster.com/residential/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/ClimateMaster-Tranquility-2027-Series-Brochure.pdf

First Stage Operation* Second Stage Operation

Capacity (Btuh) EER (Btuh/W) Capacity (Btuh) COP Capacity (Btuh) EER (Btuh/W) Capacity (Btuh) COP

TT-026 21,300 26.0 16,500 4.6 26,000 18.5 19,800 4.0
TT-038 28,900 27.0 22,100 4.5 38,200 18.2 29,000 4.0
TT-049 39,600 24.9 31,200 4.6 50,600 17.9 37,500 4.0
TT-064 49,800 25.3 37,500 4.3 64,800 17.5 48,000 3.9
TT-072 57,700 21.4 45,400 3.9 71,600 16.2 54,100 3.6

48,000 btu/h is the published rate for TT-064 2nd stage.... You might be looking at possibly open loop??? Or old information. Looks like you better refresh your information Joe. hence my opinion on the bad advice that's given here.

My systems are monitored through Ecobee's. And the bills of my customers are proven. We have significantly lower bills than our competitors. All because of proper sizing.

In Canada there isn't a lower KWH rate and separate meter like most of the United States have. Following your design criteria and procedures is half the reason Next Energy Solutions isn't around today. They used to be largest in Canada. Constant under sizing has hurt our industry here. Under sizing the unit only hurts the end user.
docjenserUser is Offline
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13 May 2014 07:38 PM
I site with Joe here.

The total KWH can be lower with a smaller system and a couple percent of aux heat versus a 100% system. In addition, it saves you significant money upfront. You might notice, but the numbers you have displayed above indicate that the smaller units run more efficient, with a higher COP the entire year, thus a smaller unit with supplement heat can run more efficient overall, not to mention the lesser pumping power you need.

Ecobee is a thermostat, but does not monitor system's energy performance or loop temps.

Sure, there is little downside to oversize your loop, but you are wasting a significant amount of your customers money. Plus to reach 34-38F min EWT in Canada, where ground temps are less, your loops must be oversized by a significant amount.

Oversizing the unit is even worse. What you claim is good (running more in 1st stage) will result in more cycling in part load situations (bad for equipment life). And unless you have a variable speed heat pump, your summer comfort in the short A/C period (if you have such thing) is not desirable.

For someone who has overseen over 10,000 installations, but cannot reference any of his claims, nor has data to support it, and simply teaches against the laws of physics here, your tone and the misfacts you are displaying here are more indicating of a used car sales man than an expert in geothermal.
www.buffalogeothermalheating.com
MichaelRUser is Offline
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13 May 2014 08:57 PM
Just as a point of reference an ecobee CAN monitor your electrical consumption and CAN monitor loop temperatures. We do both.

Some interesting discussion and I just wanted to clarify those two points for anyone reading.
joe.amiUser is Offline
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14 May 2014 09:27 AM
Smarthomes, I agree this is not personnal, but you are making assertions that are not true so I will bring them up.
First I said TE64, you are looking at old information. I pulled the amount of btu's produced off the geodesinger software written by CM.
Regardless you glossed over my point that the best thing to do was bring the load down a little and make it meet the 70% or more that your own cited CSA448 sets as acceptable. You also did not tell me how you were going to get 75MBH out of 7 tons while you commented on my math.

I brought up Ed, because you implied things were different in CA ("I'm a professional from Ontario Canada, with a lot of experience all over Canada. My views do not agree with others here.") and that you had superior knowledge because of that. Wheter contributor or sole author of a book one still "wrote the book". Here's a comment he made recently in a discussion elsewhere:

"I've seen in my own home as well as many projects I've been involved in that internal, solar and occupant loads are predictable enough that they need to be taken into account. Passive Houses, for example, are designed to rely almost completely on these loads to heat them. I have been in a home when the outdoor temperature was -20 F and found the unit was actually running in cooling mode because the solar gains on the west facing windows was so large."

With modern envelopes the new balance point we must look at is the one where the buildings internal gains are no longer adequate to heat the building without the heat plant running. Calculation systems default to internal gains much lower than some modern homes and buildings with multiple computer use and such. Any geo installer doing business as usual, using out of date load calculators and out of date sizing practices is grossly oversizing equipment.

Now I will tell you this, if the 75MBH load came from an obselte calculator (such as the manual J here in the states), then it is already around 20% high due to old fudge philosophies which would make your 7 ton grossly oversized.

No doubt your systems work, but are they the most efficient, not likely. That doesn't make them bad, just not the best design. And please don't suggest the only thing to compare them to is undersized equipment, there is such a thing as right sized, vs under or oversized.

Larger units have larger compressors which use more amps every time they are running, while smaller copressors (on smaller heat pumps) only use more amps when the auxiliary is on. If you get auxiliary use to just a few days each winter it will cost less to run the 5 ton system above than the 7 tons you suggest. And you save on infrastructure such as ducts and electric.

I mean no disrespect, but I'll bet many of the systems you call "undersized" are right sized and acceptable by CSA448.

Michael IR. I agree though we seldom do more than just monitor operation as we can tell by balance point whether or not it's working, we do have a few interesting projects we like more data from.
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
noobooUser is Offline
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14 May 2014 11:18 PM
I spoke with a local professional around these cold parts of the world today. Let me say this is Latitude 62. Anyway...he tells me that his system loop returns are often at 18-20f.

The question was does geo work in cold winters and the answer is yes, but as we can see, there is disagreement in how it is done and I am not saying 18f loop returns are the way to go, just that is what some closed loop sytems are running here; go figure.

Oh, said pro also states he heats water to 140f...seems like a big hit on COP, rt?
joe.amiUser is Offline
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15 May 2014 08:09 AM
Yes Nooboo, the combination of low EWT and high loadside temps is unfortunate. He may be a "pro", but only in the context of gets paid.
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
MickeyMUser is Offline
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15 May 2014 09:51 AM
@smarthomes, thanks for taking the time to share your views, though it seems you've cause a bit of controversy here

I've received feedback from four geothermal installers in my area. One suggested 5 tons, two for 6 tons, and one for 10 tons (6 + 4 ton unit!). So there appears to be a diverse set of views. The installer that sized 10 tons said he sizes to 100%, and recommended that we forget geothermal altogether if we're planning to undersize and should go with propane, lol. On the flip side, I have hear several anecdotal stories of friend of friends who had geo and it not working properly during the winter (so not sure what happened there). I have to say it doesn't give me a lot of confidence with the pros around my area. Curiously, one suggested a 7 ton loop for a 6 ton system, what might be the benefit of that?

I'm not too worried about determining the sizing yet, since as many have pointed out, I should look to reduce my heat loss first. I do support the concept of having some backup heat since the heat loss is based on -6F, and there are only 260 hours in the winter that goes below this temp. I don't have the funds to size to 100% anyways. Plus, I plan to dig my horizontal trenches to at least 7 or 8 ft if the water table allows to protect the EWT (some installers were recommending 5 ft only).

I'm actually looking into DIY geothermal now. There's a big price difference between the cost of a kit (6 ton Climatemaster 27) from the US and installed cost in Toronto (up to 10K), that it seem worth looking into. In both cases I would dig the trenches myself. There is no tax credit up here unfortunately. Though there is a microFIT program for solar, where I can get paid $0.40 per kwh produced for <10kw system for the next 20 years (great program).

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15 May 2014 10:17 AM
Posted By MichaelR on 13 May 2014 08:57 PM
Just as a point of reference an ecobee CAN monitor your electrical consumption and CAN monitor loop temperatures. We do both.

Some interesting discussion and I just wanted to clarify those two points for anyone reading.


You would need some kind of Ampmeter/Pulse counter to interface with the Ecobee. While you can have a temp sensor on the loop, I would question that it can actually measure performance, as I had question. It would need to calculate the heat output in relation to the energy input (electrical draw) and I would be interested in how you accomplish this.
www.buffalogeothermalheating.com
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15 May 2014 10:34 AM
Posted By MickeyM on 15 May 2014 09:51 AM
@smarthomes, thanks for taking the time to share your views, though it seems you've cause a bit of controversy here

I've received feedback from four geothermal installers in my area. One suggested 5 tons, two for 6 tons, and one for 10 tons (6 + 4 ton unit!). So there appears to be a diverse set of views. The installer that sized 10 tons said he sizes to 100%, and recommended that we forget geothermal altogether if we're planning to undersize and should go with propane, lol. On the flip side, I have hear several anecdotal stories of friend of friends who had geo and it not working properly during the winter (so not sure what happened there). I have to say it doesn't give me a lot of confidence with the pros around my area. Curiously, one suggested a 7 ton loop for a 6 ton system, what might be the benefit of that?

I'm not too worried about determining the sizing yet, since as many have pointed out, I should look to reduce my heat loss first. I do support the concept of having some backup heat since the heat loss is based on -6F, and there are only 260 hours in the winter that goes below this temp. I don't have the funds to size to 100% anyways. Plus, I plan to dig my horizontal trenches to at least 7 or 8 ft if the water table allows to protect the EWT (some installers were recommending 5 ft only).

I'm actually looking into DIY geothermal now. There's a big price difference between the cost of a kit (6 ton Climatemaster 27) from the US and installed cost in Toronto (up to 10K), that it seem worth looking into. In both cases I would dig the trenches myself. There is no tax credit up here unfortunately. Though there is a microFIT program for solar, where I can get paid $0.40 per kwh produced for <10kw system for the next 20 years (great program).



Deeper ground can help reducing the seasonal swing of the loop, You should have a good 8ft minimum for your loops, plus if you make the loops larger you also reduce the risk of running the loop below 20F.
http://welserver.com/WEL0447/
The above link is an example of a 5000 sqf old farmhouse, 92KBTU/h heat loss.
Going with 2 furnaces was cost prohibitive, so we installed a 6 ton with a 20 KW electric heat element in it. Not a single time the heat element went into the second stage (20KW) the most it was running was first stage (10KW).
About 2560 hours of runtime for this coldest winter in decades since Jan 1st. Aux heat was running 427 hours. of those 2560 total hours. 10 KW of aux heat at 12 cents/kwh had cost him about $500, in a normal winter is was more like $250. The rest of the geo system came down to $2500 running.
To put it in perspective, propane would have cost him $10K in the same time period. Hope this helps.
www.buffalogeothermalheating.com
MickeyMUser is Offline
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15 May 2014 11:41 AM
Hey docjenser, that's a great example. Thanks for helping us

Okay I'll do 8ft minimum. I see that you laid 4,800 ft of pipes (or 800ft/ ton), so I guess you opted for longer than usual loops? The installers were recommending 600ft per ton for 3/4" pipes.

The DIY kit recommend bringing the 6 loops into the house and then joining them inside to the 6 port manifold. Are there any downside to doing this vs. fusing the pipes outside?
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15 May 2014 07:29 PM
Micky.......is that a typo for the .40/kwh?
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15 May 2014 07:36 PM
Actual no, 39.6 cents per kWh to be exact for solar. I am in a rural location though, so hopefully they accept my application.

http://microfit.powerauthority.on.ca/solar-photovoltaic-pv
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15 May 2014 07:53 PM
We also use now 600ft circuits due to reduced pressure drop, WEL 447 was installed in 2009 and the designs changed since then. However, we still put in 800ft per ton, just more circuits.

What kit are you referring to? Send me a weblink.




In regards to the headering inside rather than outside, that is actually a better way for DYI, since it save you from having a flush cart. On the downside, you are bringing 12 pipes into the house instead of 2.

If you can consider putting the pipes in before you pour your basement slab (pushing them below the footers) , that way you do not have any wall penetrations.

www.buffalogeothermalheating.com
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15 May 2014 08:03 PM
Does this mean you have 7 loops/circuits for 6 tons?

The kit I'm considering is very similar to this one:
http://www.geothermalproducts.com/New-Climatemaster-DIY-Geothermal-5-ton-2-stage-heat-Pump-Install-Package_p_45.html

We are pouring the foundation soon but not the slab, but I don't have the pipes yet. One suggestion was to put two 8" holes 1 1/2 ft apart, that seems very big...
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15 May 2014 08:38 PM
Don't put in 8" holes for multiple pipes, you never get them sealed.

Usually we do 8 loops of 600ft slinkies for 6 tons, but you get by with 600ft/ton if you put it in straight, 300ft trenches.
www.buffalogeothermalheating.com
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15 May 2014 09:03 PM
I see. If each pipe is only 3/4", it seems to me two 4" hole should fit 2x 6 pipes? Otherwise maybe I'll do 4 holes of 3" wide somewhere inconspicuous.

What did you think of the kit?
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16 May 2014 12:23 AM
The issue is not the size of the hole, but putting multiple pipes through it. How do you expect to apply a seal? Keep in mind that each pipe expands and contracts with temperature change. Tough for me to judge the kit.

I'll shoot you an email....
www.buffalogeothermalheating.com
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