Posted By joe.ami on 14 May 2014 09:27 AM

First I said TE64, you are looking at old information. I pulled the amount of btu's produced off the geodesinger software written by CM.

**** This does not fly for CSA448. It has to be the published numbers on Climatemaster site, not geodesigner as it's very easy to fudge the answers how you want to see them as well. That's reconized.


Regardless you glossed over my point that the best thing to do was bring the load down a little and make it meet the 70% or more that your own cited CSA448 sets as acceptable.

I agree

You also did not tell me how you were going to get 75MBH out of 7 tons while you commented on my math.
I said I prefer to see it at 100% my suggestion was at 72% using the Climate Master.

I brought up Ed, because you implied things were different in CA ("I'm a professional from Ontario Canada, with a lot of experience all over Canada. My views do not agree with others here.") and that you had superior knowledge because of that. Wheter contributor or sole author of a book one still "wrote the book". Here's a comment he made recently in a discussion elsewhere:

"I've seen in my own home as well as many projects I've been involved in that internal, solar and occupant loads are predictable enough that they need to be taken into account. Passive Houses, for example, are designed to rely almost completely on these loads to heat them. I have been in a home when the outdoor temperature was -20 F and found the unit was actually running in cooling mode because the solar gains on the west facing windows was so large."

I can agree, it's sunny in Manitoba during deep freeze months, but we still have to design to heat loss calc. You cannot use solar gains when the sun isn't out.

With modern envelopes the new balance point we must look at is the one where the buildings internal gains are no longer adequate to heat the building without the heat plant running. Calculation systems default to internal gains much lower than some modern homes and buildings with multiple computer use and such. Any geo installer doing business as usual, using out of date load calculators and out of date sizing practices is grossly oversizing equipment.

I will agree to disagree. Our customers are enjoying bills of 200 per month average, while these undersized units with electric heat are using 600-900 per month in electric bills for 3 months plus.
Especially this winter there are a lot of upset customers out there. In Canada we had a winter like we used to.
Now I will tell you this, if the 75MBH load came from an obselte calculator (such as the manual J here in the states), then it is already around 20% high due to old fudge philosophies which would make your 7 ton grossly oversized.

I agree heat loss's are grossly high in some case's. I believe it even in this case. Unfortunately we are bound to HRAI's heat loss practice's, which have that built in, but is the standard in Canada hence the CSA 448 70% rule, otherwise it would be 100%. (allows for the 20% high rule imo)

No doubt your systems work, but are they the most efficient, not likely. That doesn't make them bad, just not the best design. And please don't suggest the only thing to compare them to is undersized equipment, there is such a thing as right sized, vs under or oversized.

Larger units have larger compressors which use more amps every time they are running, while smaller compressors (on smaller heat pumps) only use more amps when the auxiliary is on. If you get auxiliary use to just a few days each winter it will cost less to run the 5 ton system above than the 7 tons you suggest. And you save on infrastructure such as ducts and electric.

I will agree to disagree. In most parts of Canada we can see major swings in temperature. The "system" must be able to handle that. We must be able to handle extreme weathers, like this past winter. I'd rather build my customer to be prepared for the worst.

I have no problems with a system design in the 70-100% range, personally try to get it closer to 100% but absolutely no less than 80%. In this case might bend a little for a 6 ton at 73% just because of the cost of 2 units vs 1. But i would agree to the 7 ton loon vs the 6 ton loop. This will do 2 things for the customer. Give a warmer loop, better efficiency. Also will ensure to the customer that chances are no change to the loop when he has to replace his unit years down from now. As units get more efficient they need bigger ground loops, Heat of extraction is much more now than it used to be.
I mean no disrespect, but I'll bet many of the systems you call "undersized" are right sized and acceptable by CSA448.


Actually no.... most of the contractors were being poorly instructed by their supplier. Most were sized to 60-65% which is against CSA448.

Be careful of the suggestion of 8 ft deep. I agree it's good to get lower but it may be easier to put another ton into the ground at 6 ft. Local regulations of trenches frown going further than 6 ft.

Part of the local regulation after 6 feet you need to slope the trench 2 x as wide as deep in case of collapse.

I would also advise against the deal from the United States. Call the manufacture, explain the site you are buying from and make sure they will still warranty it. The manufactures have agreements in place with distributors in Canada and many not warranty it due to their agreements.

I would strongly suggest if you are committed to doing part of it yourself you have a contractor install the pipes and use Pipe fusion outside to connect the pipes together, allowing you to bring 2 x 1 1/4 pipes into your home. Less wall penetrations, less chance of leak. The anti freeze solution you need to put into your loop is dangerous if not handled properly and can cause fire or death if mishandled.

With the ecobee's you can put upto 16 temperature/ dry contacts into a chart for monitoring and but you are limited to 4 that can be setup for alerts ex. low temp, high temp on either water or air side. Then you also can setup a reaction (shut down unit, email, etc.)

Posted By docjenser on 21 May 2014 12:35 PM
A few points here:


1) A system can be sized to supply 70% of the peak load which can provide 95-98% of the annual load, whereas it can be more economical to supplemental resistance heat.

In Canada at min requirement 70%. Heat loss vs brochure spec. But I basically agreed with you above.

2) Warranties across country borders are an issue. So are DIY jobs. Most require accredited installers.
3) Yes it is an issue for warranty, and thanks for bringing up accredited installers. Most townships for the permit require CGC designers and or installers.

Depth is the best protection against seasonal temperature swings. Thus 8 ft is better than 6ft. No one suggested that one jumps in the 8ft trenches, or does not step bench the trenches at 4ft, which is actually the requirement in the U.S.
We go down in the trench, make sure the pipes are spaced properly, and ensure that during the backfill there is no damage to the pipes.

4) Yes, heat fusion is the best method and for me the only acceptable method, however, in no pressurized systems, other methods can be utilized.

Fusion should be the only method. I've seen some scary stuff including muffler clamps to fix school loops. Using other methods because it is a non pressurized system is very very poor suggestion on your part. It's not ok to have leaks in the ground and "just top it up" (not what you suggested exactly but implied with non pressurized.)

5) If headering outside, the issue is how a DIY would get the air out without a purge cart?

Again my suggestion above was to hire a contractor to fuse together and put in antifreeze, should be requirement from the foolish companies selling DIY kits. These companies selling them should also be environmentally, legally, and financially responsible for any errors caused by the DIY homeowner. Contractors go through training and certifications for a reason.

6) There are 2 principal antifreeze means, namely alcohol based (methanol or ethanol) or glycol. While Methanol requires some knowledge and care, Glycol (usually used by DIYs) is not causing fires and not causing deaths. Don't mislead and misinform people here.

DIY can only use Glycol, but it causes more pumping amps due to gelling in the winter time. In Ontario methanol is banned in ground loops, installers can only use ethanol.
7) While the ecobee can monitor certain temps, it cannot monitor performance or efficiency due to its lack of computing capabilities.

Ecobee's data can be exported quickly and the calculation can be made for every 5 min easily in excel. Plus there is no monthly fees.
8) Your examples of your houses using $200 monthly whereas the house undersized use $600 to $900 might be also misrepresenting. Given that the units might run with a COP of 4 versus pure electricity at a COP of 1, a house with the same load might run at $200 with 100% geo versus $800 (100% electric). So even a house which is only sized for 60% (undersized according to you) of the peak load (which probably in the coldest month equal to 80% of the average load in that month, would result in $160 for geo (80%) and $160 for electric resistance heat (20%), for a total of $320, and not $600-$900 as you cite here.

My suggestion is to read before you type. read above again, then maybe again then maybe again and you might see I said my customers on average is 200 per month. you could have asked for an elaboration, which I would have told you on high heat months 300 ish and summer months 100-150 ish.

For someone who is in the business for 30 years and has done thousands of systems, your math is simply is terribly off.....
again read above, maybe several times. Your making up my math for me. Part of the higher costs also include additional fees from hydro companies on the amps used with resistance heat. We have smart meters here. (But i think they are stupid for the record.)

Posted By smarthomes on 22 May 2014 02:24 PM
"Your idea of energy monitoring for the year is to export the runtime for every 5 minutes interval, and export it into excel? And then compare it with your dedicated meter for the geo unit? So how would you know the amount of energy delivered to that particular house?" As previously stated on this thread already we don't have separate meters here for the Geothermal units like in the USA. And we don't get a price break either for Geothermal.

Posted By smarthomes on 22 May 2014 02:40 PM
I caught you guys giving bad advice to a consumer in an area your not familiar with the rules. Stop cry like babies, and doing what you can to discredit me. I love how you just like to put words in my mouth. Just because you have 1000, or 4000 posts on a forum, does not make you an industry expert or an expert giving proper advice. This just happens to be the really the only forum for geothermal. Oh and guess what... you run it!