"Certified' geo installers
Last Post 20 Oct 2014 09:46 AM by joe.ami. 14 Replies.
Printer Friendly
Sort:
PrevPrev NextNext
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Author Messages
robinncUser is Offline
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Send Private Message
Posts:586

--
24 Sep 2014 10:16 PM
<!--[if gte mso 9]> Normal 0 false false false EN-US X-NONE AR-SA What constitutes a 'certified' installer?? Do they actually go thru any training in a classroom??  Any tests they have to take and pass? IMO...I would think they would have to have a certain number of hours in a class and then given at least 6 or more scenarios on how to size the tons needed for those houses.

It just seems everyone here has seen soooo many (*&^&*^$% geo installed that they were NOT qualified in any sense! Are they just getting into so they can double/triple their profits??

Pros......WTF is going on here??

engineerUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2749

--
24 Sep 2014 10:55 PM
Certified by whom?

I'm certified by the State of Florida to service and install any HVAC system up to 25 tons and / or 500,000 Btuh. That credential no more prepares me to work on geo systems than a private pilot's license would let me fly to the moon!

Your "size the tons" is a process completely independent of geothermal. It's called "Manual J" and doing it properly escapes the majority of HVAC contractors of every stripe, be they gas furnace, air source heat pump, or water source heat pump contractors
Curt Kinder <br><br>

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
docjenserUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:1400

--
25 Sep 2014 09:37 AM
IGSHPA certification requires a 3 day course and an examen at the end. Then you know enough to be dangerous.....
www.buffalogeothermalheating.com
joe.amiUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:4377
Avatar

--
25 Sep 2014 10:19 AM
There was a movement towards National Certification, but frankly all certifications like the Code are bare minimum standards. Many certifications are also not worth the expense.

Nate now certifies geo using the igshpa standards. So to be Nate certified I was asked for a hundred bucks which I wouldn't have paid except a lender I work with recognizes Nate but not igshpa.

Other certifications such as CGD are expensive, 1-2k and not available to installers until they have years and installs under their belts.

In spite of engineering degrees and CGD's so many of these folks remain unevolved. The one's people need to hire are the Doc's out there. If you have a company that monitors equipment, then you know they are evolving in both design and technology. All others are guessing.
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
robinncUser is Offline
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Send Private Message
Posts:586

--
01 Oct 2014 10:19 PM
The people who get the docs out there win the lottery. It just boggles my mind WITH the mfs don’t ‘require’ the installers to be certified in installing geo. This is a MAJOR expense for folks. So many people come to this forum with the same problems over and over again. Why would a mfg allow people incompetent to install their product???? I’ve got 3 degrees, all business related and that just makes NO sense!!!

Bill NeukranzUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:1103

--
01 Oct 2014 11:05 PM
In the mid-central south area, like here in the Dallas area, it's really not that hard as long as it's a closed loop vertical system.  Especially noting that Winters are mild to the point that no antifreeze is needed in the loop, and no aux heaters are needed in the air handling units.

It's a pretty easy procedure here.  First walk the home and note the capacity of the existing A/C unit(s).  Increase the tonnage a little bit if the homeowner complains that there historically isn't enough cooling present.  Since homes down here don't have basements, and thus all air handling equipment is up in attics, there really isn't a need for more sophisticated Manual S, J, D or T analysis.

No design work really is needed for loops here.  It's commonly known here that 300 feet boreholes work great, one per ton.  Keep them about 15' apart, 'normal size' HDPE 1" pipe works great, and connect them up to a pretty big collection pipe - it's hard to fail using 2" header pipe.  Don't forget to put in the 2" purge ports - the farther out in to the yard (closer to the boreholes) the better.

A little practice with a pipe connection fuser is usually helpful.

Normal bentonite 'sealant' works fine.  Just pore it down the hole until the hole is full.

After you bring into the attic the 2" header pipes, near the air handling unit, size down the pipe and install one or two of the typical 1/6th hp Grundfos pumps.  Probably best to put in two to make sure there's enough pumping capacity.  Too much is not a problem.

After hooking up the pipes, the only thing that's 'tricky' is purging the air out of the lines.  Someone that has a purge cart is needed here.

That's about it!

Best regards,

Bill
Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
joe.amiUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:4377
Avatar

--
02 Oct 2014 09:12 AM
"It just boggles my mind WITH the mfs don’t ‘require’ the installers to be certified in installing geo."

Most manufacturers do put installers through a one or 2 day course and offer some additional ed along the way. The thing is it really isn't that hard to do it right or close to right and most companies do which is why very few complaints appear on line compared to 100's of thousands of heat pumps that have been sold since you started noticing complaints Robinnc. I don't think it's as hard "to hit the lotto" as you think.

Those of us who have been around geo for awhile notice that most of the training classes are SOS and have a hard time making time to see it again. Those of us who spend a lot of time communicating with progressive peers find much of the training material or installation manuals dated (i.e. bufferless dsh or balancing loops).

Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
geomeUser is Offline
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Send Private Message
Posts:987

--
02 Oct 2014 10:44 AM
Certifications, degrees, etc., only mean so much. There are lots of talented doctors, lawyers, engineers, accountants, geothermal installers, etc., out there. There are also lots of 'certified' or 'degreed' quacks in all of these fields. I have never gone wrong with the selection of a professional when I confirm multiple references or ask for recommendations and receive a consensus. I avoid professionals who only (or mainly) focus on their certification or degree. That typically indicates lack of experience. Certifications and degrees do not indicate proficiency.
Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon.
engineerUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2749

--
09 Oct 2014 09:55 PM
"It's a pretty easy procedure here. First walk the home and note the capacity of the existing A/C unit(s). Increase the tonnage a little bit if the homeowner complains that there historically isn't enough cooling present. Since homes down here don't have basements, and thus all air handling equipment is up in attics, there really isn't a need for more sophisticated Manual S, J, D or T analysis."

Wow - talk about "unevolved"!

That approach completely ignores the near certainty that the typical underperforming system, be it air or water, is both oversized and hobbled by crappy ductwork. Adding a ton here or there isn't going to do anything good about the crappy ductwork, but ir will exacerbate the performance and efficiency problems.

I completely don't get the connection / disconnection between attic ductwork, lack of a basement and purported exemption from the principles of Man J, D , S, or T...

Unless the forgoing was some great satire and I fell for it!
Curt Kinder <br><br>

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
Bill NeukranzUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:1103

--
12 Oct 2014 02:29 PM
Posted By engineer on 09 Oct 2014 09:55 PM
... Unless the forgoing was some great satire and I fell for it!

It was a humorous representation of how things are done for the residential market here in the Dallas area by all but one or two.

The commercial geo market here in the Dallas area is very strong.  And done well.  But when the residential geo guys are competing with the 'dog eat dog' world of the conventional A/C guys, who are in and out in a matter of a few hours for an A/C replacement, it's tough, as the above commented means of doing business are all too prevalent.

Regardless of what kind of A/C you want (geo, HP, conventional), mention that you want to insist on having the professional do a Man J or any other Man X analysis as part of the requested estimate, it won't happen.  The professional simply moves on to the next customer who doesn't insist.  There are too many potential customers who have no cooling during the hottest parts who are desperate and accept the "only a few hours" needed to replace a unit

Best regards,

Bill
Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
docjenserUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:1400

--
13 Oct 2014 12:48 PM
I kind of agree with Bill. Go and eat me all up.....
You walk through a house, you size the conventional sized unit, you ask for the thermostat setting, you ask if things were cooling enough. You settle on your tonnage (at least the upper range). you a quick insanity check for the ductwork if it can support the air flow. Now you have already gathered more data than most guesstimates with a 15% safety factor (manual J) can give you. You install a dual speed (with an ECM fan) geo unit, and which comes in 20-25 size increments anyway, so you unlikely have any good justification to go down a size. Now variable speed changes all that even more. If you indeed oversized the unit by a ton, the compressor will now go through stage 1-9 instead of 1-12 (not a big deal!), but arguably run more efficient since the heat exchangers are now oversized. So even if that happens, the slightly higher upfront costs of a larger variable speed pays itself back over time. Same with the loop field, they are very forgiving, not the end of the world if you undersize one by 10 or 20%, with very little impact on seasonal operational costs. If you monitor those systems, you realizes soon or later that you have other issues which have a much higher impact on performance, like circulation pumps, loop field design for low pressure drop, design of radiant system, DHW configuration etc. Make sure your upper end is covered, make sure you have enough flow on the source and air side, reduce the pumping and fan power, and let the packaged unit do its job. Variable speed will change everything, we will have more and more a one size fits it all approach.
www.buffalogeothermalheating.com
Bill NeukranzUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:1103

--
13 Oct 2014 04:51 PM
Posted By docjenser on 13 Oct 2014 12:48 PM
I kind of agree with Bill. Go and eat me all up.....
 
... Now you have already gathered more data than most guesstimates with a 15% safety factor (manual J) can give you.
 
... If you monitor those systems, you realize(s) soon(er) or later that you have other issues which have a much higher impact on performance, like circulation pumps, loop field design for low pressure drop, ... DHW configuration etc.
 
Make sure your upper end is covered, make sure you have enough flow on the source and air side, reduce the pumping and fan power, and let the packaged unit do its job.

Variable speed will change everything, we will have more and more a one size fits it all approach.

Yup!

Give that guy (docjenser) a gold star!  Well understands what it really takes to compete in the residential market place, and is still using geo!  Impressive!

Best regards,

Bill

P.S.: Knowledge is power.  The learning you obtain from monitoring implemented systems is invaluable.  (Sometimes we put them in at our own expense when we do large commercial lighting efficiency jobs.)
Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
joe.amiUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:4377
Avatar

--
14 Oct 2014 08:01 AM
Agreeed Doc, that's why I made the comment earlier that it's not that hard to be right or close to right.

Robinnc, you start with the premise that sooooo many systems are messed up, what do you say to 100s of thousands of units sold to what, dozens of complaints you've witnessed? Even if it's hundreds, that's still a fraction of a percent.
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
robinncUser is Offline
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Send Private Message
Posts:586

--
19 Oct 2014 10:38 PM
Joe, I don't go to any HP web sites like you do. I did mention a few months ago I had to have my 28 year old HP(GE) replaced 7 yrs ago. Bought the house in '83. NEVER had a single call for repair. When the new Traine was installed, had to have SEVEN repair calls in less than 6 yrs!!!! It seems like(if I remember correctly) half the time it had something to do with a TX valve??
joe.amiUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:4377
Avatar

--
20 Oct 2014 09:46 AM
"Joe, I don't go to any HP web sites like you do"

Robinnc, whether you go to a lot of sites or not it is easily verifiable that 100's of thousands of units have been sold over the last several years and the complaints are number in the dozens. Your accusation that so many systems are messed up is not supported by the facts.

"When the new Traine was installed, had to have SEVEN repair calls in less than 6 yrs!!!!"

Is this an air source HP? What does that have to do with certifying geo installers?

Look I'm not trying to bust your chops here, but are you basing the need for geo installer certification on dozens of botched jobs (in spite of 6 figures in units sold) and your screwed up air source heat pump?
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
You are not authorized to post a reply.

Active Forums 4.1
Membership Membership: Latest New User Latest: noooze New Today New Today: 1 New Yesterday New Yesterday: 0 User Count Overall: 34706
People Online People Online: Visitors Visitors: 135 Members Members: 1 Total Total: 136
Copyright 2011 by BuildCentral, Inc.   Terms Of Use  Privacy Statement