No! Just tireless arguments with people who do not understand pumps. But that is becoming less and less. I guess I have provoked a few people into getting out a pump curve and find out I was right all along.

Except for the "higher pressure than your house pressure" you just described what a VFD does as well. "Waste energy and increase run time." Lol. You said, "You will see the amps the pump is drawing will go down as you close the valve". Correct! So the "higher pressure" caused by the CSV closing down is actually a good thing for the pump/motor. As you say, "the amps will go down", so the motor is running cooler and using less energy. It is the same with a CSV as with a VFD. Except the CSV doesn't vary the speed of the pump, or have all the problems that go with varying the speed.

I don't mind arguing with plumbers. Pump horsepower curves are counter intuitive, and I don't expect them to understand without an explanation. But I would expect an engineer to know how to read a pump curve and be able to show proof of what he is talking about? I have asked you several times for any kind of proof and all I get is more argument. lol

Great response Newbostonconst and I and every other engineer who does this for a living have stopped wasting our time debating anything with this salesman.

By the way, the best way to get water into your house from a well and/or a surface water source is to just place a large tank high up on a hill such that you can gravity feed it down to your house and provide adequate domestic water pressure without running a pump.

For a well water source, you use a simple low cost float switch in the tank to operate the well pump which is properly sized for the system to operate at the pump BEP (Best Efficiency Point) or minimal energy usage point. The well pump will only cycle a couple times each month. Lifting the water to the additional height of the tank is equivalent to pressurizing a bladder tank to achieve the same domestic water pressure. You can also use a solar powered well pump.

For a stream surface water source, you use a hydraulic ram pump that operates continuously at a relatively low flow rate (e.g., 1800 gallons/day) and doesn’t use any electricity at all.

Of course this approach isn’t an option for many (and the bladder tank approach then becomes the best option), but that’s what we do (for both our well and our stream water sources) and we design and sell hydraulic ram pumps too:

Landis Hydraulic Ram Pump

Borst Hydraulic Ram Pump Performance Calculator

You won't have to waste your time debating if you just post some proof. I have posted pump curves and charts to prove what I am saying, and you guys don't even know how to read read it. Here is article I posted that gets read a lot over many years. Some engineers get angry at me for this article, but they can't do a thing about it because it is all true.

https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/variable-speed-pumps-vfds-are-a-scam

Posted By Valveman on 19 Mar 2019 07:55 PM
Except for the "higher pressure than your house pressure" you just described what a VFD does as well. "Waste energy and increase run time." Lol.

The more you talk the more I think you don't know what you are talking about. How does a VFD make more pressure then is needed. They very the speed of the pump to maintain a certain pressure that the user sets. Your CSV\pump setup pumps a substantial amount of excess unused pressure thus making the pump run more and waste energy. Also in this users setup would he want to pump to a higher pressure only to dump the water at zero pressure.....you make no sense.

I said "except for the higher than house pressure", a VFD increases run time and waste energy. A VFD varies the pump speed to adjust the flow, no extra pressure. A CSV varies the head, making the pump think it is in a deeper well (extra pressure) to adjust the flow. The part that most people do not understand, is that higher back pressure on a pump will lower the amp draw or horsepower the same as varying the speed. It is just the way pumps work, but it is counter intuitive. Engineers do not like counter intuitive stuff. But that doesn't mean it isn't so!

Thanks for your answers guys but i don’t think i talk something about cycling !?
I said i need something which can provide the same pressure and flow but with less watt .
Valman is understant your are in business for SCV and i take your argumens but i m not sure it apply to me...
Maybe 1/2hp is too small for vfd (and the price !)
Also when geo is running the pressure is stable at 38psi .
And yes water temp is between 50 and 52 F all year long (it s because it s french canadian lol )
Have nice day guys!

If your pressure is stable at 38 while running the Geo, the pump is perfectly sized to the GEO, and you don't need a CSV or a VFD. But that is rarely the case. Many times the Geo has varying flow requirements and the pump usually also supplies water to the house, which also has varying flow requirements. When varying the flow from the pump is needed, a CSV is just as efficient as a VFD, while also being less expensive, more reliable, and longer lasting than a VFD.

Were you never told no as a kid? Your constant needless rambling trying to see your crap makes me want to search every forum and post as much negative stuff about your product that i can......

Were you never taught to read a pump curve? I wouldn't have to be on the Internet helping others if they weren't getting bad information from people who think they know pumps but don't have a clue. People who really know how pumps work wouldn't argue with the facts I post, and would never use a VFD. Oh and BTW there is no negative stuff about a CSV. Goulds Pumps and several others blacklisted us in 1994 because "the CSV makes pumps last longer and use smaller tanks". None of their engineers could find a single fly in the CSV ointment, and no one else can either. :)

http://welserver.com/WEL0762/

We have a few systems on open wells when we did not have the room for a vertical loop field, all VFD.

Above is a link to see the monitoring, bottom graph is the energy used by the VFD for all 3 heat pumps (12 tons) versus a 4 ton heat pump. in the middle of the winter we had an issue with one of the modulating valves, which was stuck open, so teh pump run on higher speed all the time. That was corrected, so in the middle of winter, we were back to lower pumping costs. The point being, they are all operating without flaws in the field. We never had any issues with a single one in the last 10 years....

Very nice.....how far apart are the wells and how many sqft is the building?

Also if you don't mind how big is the well pump.

I am playing with 7000 sqft house and geo open loop right now....but the Geo is costing over 20% more then Natural Gas currently to heat. Trying to size solar to cover it.

Valveman will be trying to sell you a valve in 3...2...1....

Beetlejuice, newbostonconst, Beetlejuice. LOL!

Just like to point out that a good pump will drop from 1.0 to 0.4 KW without varying the speed. If it has lasted ten years I am not going to try to talk you into something better. There are plenty enough of those VFD's that give problems and don't last ten years to keep me in groceries. All I need are the people who have had problems with VFD's, as there are plenty of those.

I have a Cycle Stop Valve in conjunction with a Grundfus 10SQ07 240 and a 4 gallon bladder tank open loop system. The CSV stops my pump from cycling at all while the Climatemaster TE064 Tranquility 30 is running and I keep it limited to stage 1 . I am very happy with the CSV and the climatemaster and have had in service about 2 years. I previously had a Florida geothermal unit and then a climatemaster in a previous home since 1989 ( the coil failed in Florida unit, it wasn't cupronickel) and the climatemaster unit there ran without problems in the 6 years before I moved to current home. I did a lot of research as my well pump was wearing out and I had a leak in gas heat exchanger and had all summer to decide what to replace them with. So far I am very happy with both.

A gate valve with a check would have accomplished the same thing on a constant flow situation such as this.

A gate valve cannot do what a CSV will do. But I use that analogy often. If you have someone watching the pressure gauge and standing there operating a gate valve 24/7, it would work like a CSV. Anytime that person saw the pressure increase 1 PSI they would close the gate valve a little. Anytime they see the pressure drop a PSI, they would need to open the gate valve a little. As the flow rate changes they would have to manually open or close the gate valve to maintain a constant pressure on the system. So I guess you would be right a gate valve can do the same thing as a CSV as long as you paid someone to stand there and adjust it according to the pressure 24 hours a day.

Thanks TKB4! Seems like everyone who has a CSV loves it, and those who don't have a CSV can't wrap their heads around how it works.

Just to clarify . the geothermal may need a constant flow but when also taking showers washing clothes or dishes and flushing commodes etc. the flow changes considerably especially with 5 person household but pressure always remains the same with or without the geothermal on.. Unless of course we use more water than the well can deliver by taking 3 or 4 showers at the same time as geothermal unit is on but same would apply to VFD system that could not meet the demand.

Also let me know how long your CSV lasts being in constant motion in the situation you are saying is a good application.

This is actually a really bad use of a CSV because you are pressurizing the water to only dump it down a drain thus not only do you have pumping losses you are heating the water which will cause decrease performance of the geo thermal system in the summer. Sad.....lots and lots of money lost that you don't even realize.

If you are over thirty, you will be dead and gone like me before that CSV wears out. Some of the first test CSV's are still working after 27 years.

Aren't you an engineer? Can't you post a pump curve or a horsepower calculation to prove what you are saying? All I hear is nana nana boo boo like a two year old who can't win an argument.

So far the only thing in your posts that is accurate is the quote from George Carlins.
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." George Carlins

I need to take that advice as you are only bringing me down to your level.

I am not sure I understand you. Are you saying that pressurizing the water to 50 psi is heating it? This may be true but only a very small degree. . But since I only have a 3/4 inch PVC cold water line already in place near the geothermal unit if I use stage 2 I would need about 40 psi to supply the water about 300 feet and many pipe bends from well. I do, however plan to run a dedicated 1 1/4 inch line which I already have left over from replacing PVC well pipe directly to the geothermal unit and also install about a 4 gallon bladder tank and 20psi Cycle Stop Valve in order to decrease work the well pump performs to supply water to the geothermal so there will be 2 CSVs one for geothermal at 20psi and one for house at 50 psi. This should be about as low as I can get on pumping costs .

If your valve lasts so long why such a short warranty period? hmmm...

tkb4 with a 1/2 hp pump you can heat the water up 5 degrees. Heating a house requires the pump to run a really long time. It is a lot of energy lost over the long run.

What size pump are you using?

The lowest energy cost for what you are planing is a VFD hands down. You could have your pump supply come up to a tee and then one side of the tee would go through a check to a bladder tank to supply your house. The other side of the tee would supply your geo. I would have a motorized ball valve that the geo opens. Link below. This valve has a contact closure in it to tell the VFD to run at a max speed to have the correct flow of water. This way you are not pumping the water to a high pressure you are targeting flow rate only.

Then your next issue is when the house water pressure drops to bring the VFD speed back up to feed the house. If you have a large tank you can likely just let the pump top off the tank at the end of the geo run. This is how I do it. But you could also have a pressure switch on the house side that turns off the geo to bring the water pressure back up if the house pressure get really low.

There are lots of more complex options also. Search and you will find more. Good Luck and always remember Valveman just wants to sell you a valve......

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Taco-LB-075-H-1LF-LeakBreaker-3-4-NPT-Water-Heater-Shut-Off-Valve-Actuator?gclid=Cj0KCQjwyLDpBRCxARIsAEENsrKjCh8l-ovxZQQXx4l76M-b2652yQiePW9dVJFLItY5hbLVPIGPaPQaAgCOEALw_wcB