I really need help with a Waterfurnace Envision Model #NDV072A111CT1 problem.
Last Post 23 Jul 2015 12:28 PM by acoral. 4 Replies.
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26 Jun 2015 01:26 PM
See below.
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26 Jun 2015 01:37 PM
I did a quick search on Google to see if I could find someone who had the same problem we are having and I found a post on this forum by annj where he indicated they had to replace the coil so I need some advice.

Their problem was almost exactly what is happening to us. We have a 6 ton Waterfurnace Envision and about a year ago I came down to a flooded basement (a puddle of water about 8 feet wide). We called the contractor in our area that was listed on Waterfurnace's site and he came out and said the coil needed to be replaced. Between diagnosing, ordering the part, getting the part and installation it took several weeks and I continued to mop daily. Waterfurnace sent the coil out right away and it was covered under warranty and we assumed all was well.

Almost two weeks ago I walked into the basement and found that it was doing the same thing again. I cleaned it up and called Waterfurnace to make sure we were still under warranty and then called the contractor but he is now so busy (I gave him an awesome review) that he wouldn't be able to come out for at least a month. So I started calling all of the contractors that Waterfurnace had listed and they kept telling me they were either too busy or I was too far away. I contacted Steve at Waterfurnace and was telling him that I was having difficulty finding someone to come out when one of the contractors took pity on me and called me back and said that even though it was a very long trip for them that they could come out in two days. Steve at Waterfurnace told me that's great but if you need anything else don't hesitate to call.

A very professional tech came out and spent nearly 3 hours trying to figure out why it was leaking again. We had very high humidity for the last several days (exterior of windows even fogging up) so it seemed to be a condensation issue but there were no leaks in the pan or line yet water was building up in the bottom of the unit and then leaking out onto the floor. The tech said the bottom of the unit was even rusting. In case it was an air flow problem causing the water to be blown from the coil and missing the pan, he turned the fan down and he also rerouted the drain pipe. They asked me to call them the next day to let them know if anything had changed.

The next morning there was water in the floor again. I called them and let them know and we discussed options but without numerous trips to my house to diagnose the problem he thought it would be best to call Steve at Waterfurnace and get their advice on what to do and make sure they would cover it under warranty. I also called Steve back and told him what was happening and asked if they could help. At this point things seemed to be going pretty good.
Several days later I was told I should call Consumer Support so I called and I spoke with Nicole (this is when things started going side ways) who said they would replace the cracked drain pan but not pay for the labor. I explained that it wasn't the drain pan because blue coloring was placed in it and the water on the floor was clear. There were also comments about the air being unconditioned but the unit sits in our basement and there is no outside air coming into the system so I also explained that to her. She also made comments that the last repair may have caused the problem but I explained that I had the same problem before the last repair so I couldn't see how that tech could have caused it. I also gave her my emai address at this point because I was starting to get upset at their lack of communication.

We then communicated by email and these are quotes of those emails:

""Mrs. Malone,

We have been in contact with Chris xxxxxx and he has described the issue to us. We are hoping you can provide us with a little more information in order for us to get to a resolution.

Can you take some pictures of the unit (stand back from the unit and get a picture of the whole unit) and maybe from a couple different angles if you can? We have a couple pictures of the inside, but we want to see the unit and how it is sitting in your basement.

Thank you in advance.

Sincerely,
Nicole Dodane
Consumer Relations Coordinator
WaterFurnace International, Inc.


Nicole,

I'm not sure why you need pictures but I took 4 and I've attached them. As we discussed earlier, it is not a crack in the drip pan like you were told by Steve nor is it from unconditioned air since all of our equipment is in the mechanical room in the basement and no air is coming from the outside. Unfortunately, it seems you were misinformed by your people on pretty much everything from what I can tell.

You can see the water from condensation is starting to pool again on both sides after I had already cleaned it up earlier. I've also been running a fan the last several days that is pointed down towards the floor to help keep it dry but it only dries out the residual left from mopping or vacuuming and does nothing to prevent the pooling of water. The pools/puddles can cover a very large space overnight and average about 3'-6' across. This is what was happening before the last repair too except the puddles seemed to be larger before. The amount of water also depends on the amount of condensation and that is dependent on the temperatures. If there is no condensation, there's no water.

Again, we firmly believe this is a warranty issue. How can it be the fault of the person who repaired it since it was doing this previously. His repair did seem to decrease the volume of the leak and the coils wouldn't hold a nitrogen charge so they were obviously leaking and had to be replaced (the trouble light also went out) but it seems that didn't fix all of our problem but without condensation being present because of the change in temperatures and humidity during the lengthy time it took to diagnose, order parts, get the parts and repair it, the condensation was no longer present after the repair. Now with the condensation the water problem is back.

I already slipped in the water and did a face plant on the concrete breaking my nose and bleeding profusely the last time the condensation caused the basement to flood. I had to mop it up daily back then until the condensation stopped leaking, then the coils were replaced and we assumed all was well. I'm now having to clean the water up again on a daily basis and as soon as the temperature and humidity changes it will stop again. This needs to be taken care of before the weather changes again. The technician who came out showed me where it is causing rust in the bottom of the unit because it has been an ongoing intermittent problem. Since the cabinet is now rusting, even if you were to fix the problem, it will continue to rust which will cause major problems in the future. Both myself and Chris at xxxx feel the best resolution at this point is to replace the unit under warranty. Any other solution would be a band aid for an intermittent problem that nobody seems to be able to diagnose with any degree of certainty and would do nothing to address the rust issue that will only continue to get worse.

This matter needs to be resolved quickly since it has now been over a week since we noticed it was leaking yet again. Frankly I'm tired of cleaning up the mess and it is a hazard (I already broke my nose because of this).

Please let me know what Water Furnace plans to do to make this right.

Cindy


Ms. Malone,

We have been in contact with Chris at xxxx and have given him our suggestion for a resolution. We have asked him to contact you to discuss this information.

Sincerely,
Nicole Dodane
Consumer Relations Coordinator
WaterFurnace International, Inc.


Nicole,

I contacted Chris at xxxx and he said he knows of no resolution and further more he hasn't even spoken to anyone at WF today. I forwarded him your email and he is going to contact you. Could you also call me at xxx-xxx-xxxx.

Cindy


Mrs. Malone,

We sent the email to Chris. We do not expect our contractors to answer emails within an hour. We do not believe that it is unreasonable to give the contractor the day to get his email and respond. This is why we stated that he would be contacting you.

Sincerely,
Nicole Dodane
Consumer Relations Coordinator
WaterFurnace International, Inc.


Nicole,

Sorry, your email sounded like you had spoken to Chris. When I read it to him he also got the same impression and we were both very confused. This makes a lot more sense. Could you please CC or forward me the suggestion for a resolution also.

Thanks,
Cindy


Ms. Malone,

The unit is condensating because the insulation inside the unit has been removed. The unit needs to be insulated to resolve this issue. We will provide the insulation to your contractor. The labor to install it will be between you and your contractor.

Sincerely,
Nicole Dodane
Consumer Relations Coordinator
WaterFurnace International, Inc.


Nicole,

The piece of insulation that you're talking about was in place when this problem first appeared. It became saturated because of the excessive condensation and was coming off which caused it to interfere with the operation of the unit so the repairman had to remove it. I think he told me at the time that since our unit was in an air conditioned space that it shouldn't make too much of a difference but it sure was causing problems flapping around so it had to come out.

So, I don't think there is any way this would fix the problem.

Cindy


Mrs. Malone,

Since you are not the original homeowner, we do not know what the original homeowner had done to this unit. We also do not know why we were not informed of this condensation issue at the installation of the unit. The insulation needs to be put back into the unit. The contractor that took it out should have replaced it, and you may want to talk to them about this.

We build thousands of these units and if it were a manufacturing issue, we would have had other homeowners with the same issue. However, we do not. Therefore, we suggest you work with your contractor to resolve this issue. If they need our assistance, please ask them to contact our Technical Support Staff. We will be more than happy to work with them.

Sincerely,
Nicole Dodane
Consumer Relations Coordinator
WaterFurnace International, Inc.


Nicole,

The original owners were Tim and Janet and I would be happy to put you in contact with them if you'd like to talk to them. They are currently on vacation and we are dog sitting for them so I can let you know when they get back. I've talked to Tim in the past about the heat pump and I can assure you that they haven't done anything to it. They are very nice people and we became good friends after we bought the house. Besides, the warranty says that it covers the Original Owner for 10 years and Subsequent Owner for the Balance of 10 years so I'm not sure why you would say, "Since you are not the original homeowner, we do not know what the original homeowner had done to this unit."

I understand that you make a lot of these but warranties wouldn't be necessary if companies never had a unique problem. I wish we knew what the problem with the unit was but we don't and that is why we are relying on you, the experts, to diagnose and fix this. I'm only trying to help you diagnose the problem by providing you with information and feedback that seems relevant so you don't waste your time, XXX's time and my time on repairs that won't help. If I hadn't been trying to help, you would have already tried to replace the drain pan that wasn't faulty because of miscommunication and all I was trying to do is explain that I don't believe the insulation is the problem and tried to explain why. You weren't informed of the condensation problem when it was installed because it wasn't a problem then and we informed you as soon as we knew. I agree that the insulation should be put back but the insulation coming off was caused by the condensation and not the cause of the condensation.

If your experts can't figure out what the problem is, then I'm not sure how one of your factory authorized service people are supposed to figure it out. I'm not even sure I could afford to pay them to do this.

We really need you to find a solution to for this.

Thank you,
Cindy


Ms. Malone,

We do not authorize any contractor to perform work on our equipment. We have informed you what needs to be done to resolve this. There is nothing more we can do.

Sincerely,
Nicole Dodane
Consumer Relations Coordinator
WaterFurnace International, Inc.""


So I'm not sure what to do here. The contractor Chris told me, "I have as well spoken to Nichole and let her know that we do not agree that this will fix the issue and with that being the case we would not be doing this work if this was what Water Furnace and you was to agree on being done." Of course, I don't agree so what's a girl to do?

I know this has been a very long winded post to say the least but guys I need help. Does anyone have any suggestions. Is it possible that it is the coil again like the other guy on this forum? The first tech who replaced it actually told me that he had heard of techs replacing the coils and the new ones were also bad, said he heard that a a guy had to change them out 3 times once. If it were the coils again, how would I know?

On another repair forum someone posted this problem and someone suggested that they try using a cheaper filter because the more expensive filters can cause increased air flow and cause the condensation to be blown off the coil. I guess it kind of makes sense, I studied Physics so I understand Bernoulli's principle but could it really make that much of a difference and be that simple?

I'm open to any suggestions or advice please.
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17 Jul 2015 02:39 PM
It really sounds like an installation issue. Units don't just leak water, it either has a crack in the drainage of condensate piping or is blowing water off something due to higher than normal pressure. If the unit was not installed level or properly drained then that is an installation issue. If the wrong filter is installed, that is an installation issue. The problem in our industry is that unless a part is broken its probably an installation issue and i have seen a whole heck of a lot more installation issues than manufacture issues. This is not to say that manufactures dont' have issues because they all do, but anything that has to do with leaking water and no cracks in the unit says install issue. I have installed a ton of these units to spec and don't have any with water leaking on the floor except one... and it had an out of alignment drain pan that looks like it got hit in shipping since the packaging of that unit had some damage in the same area. We accepted the freight as the unit needed to be installed ASAP couldn't initially find anything wrong until it leaked on the floor and we put a level on the drain pan and found that as the issue.

Manufactures only cover warranties when a part is replaced so thats probably why they are not covering labor, otherwise somebody could charge them labor only for something that they caused.
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17 Jul 2015 04:42 PM
Looks like this one may have reached a conclusion on another forum: http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?1773651-I-really-need-help-with-a-Waterfurnace-Envision-Model-NDV072A111CT1-problem
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23 Jul 2015 12:28 PM
I had noticed that the manufacturer used putty to seal around some lines and wiring that run through from the top cabinet to the bottom cabinet. The putty around the lines that are insulated in the upper cabinet had huge gaps into the lower cabinet. So, I figured what the heck I'll reseal the big holes and see what happens.
That was about 3 weeks ago and it seems to have worked. Who would have guessed that that hole between the upper and lower cabinet could have caused all that condensation! I just hope that it isn't my problem being intermittent again but it really seems to have fixed it at this point and we've had some pretty humid days so .
Thanks guys
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