Need to control water flow to Geo Unit quietly
Last Post 21 Dec 2015 06:02 PM by jonr. 18 Replies.
Printer Friendly
Sort:
PrevPrev NextNext
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Author Messages
marqUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:7

--
31 Oct 2015 09:03 AM
Unit was just serviced and they said I was running too much water. Adjusted the ball valve but now it roaring. Need some type of adjustable valve that will be quiet!
chrsUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:136

--
31 Oct 2015 10:41 AM
A better solution would be a variable-speed pump, or just a lower-power pump. Then you'd save electricity and make it quieter.

What type of loop do you have? Horizontal (in trenches), vertical (in bore holes)? Closed loop, or open loop? And what type of pump?
jonrUser is Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member
Send Private Message
Posts:5341

--
31 Oct 2015 01:58 PM
Throttling a centrifugal pump saves electricity - but I agree, a smaller pump and lower pressure is the best approach. For open loop systems, use a booster pump to create a dual pressure system.
marqUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:7

--
31 Oct 2015 05:28 PM
this is open system, pump and dump, it's off of our well so nothing can be changed Somebody has to make a high variable valve.
ronmarUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:479

--
01 Nov 2015 12:32 AM
I agree with a smaller pump. But failing that, A quieter way to do it would be to add a recirc line and valve. This is a line that runs from the pump outlet, thru a valve and right back around to the inlet. You then open that valve to control flow thru the rest of the system. The pump still flows at full volume, but a good portion of the pumped water takes the path of least resistance right back around to the pump inlet. Should be a lot quieter than throttling an oversized pump.

Are there any temperatures involved? IF so a thermostat like is used in an automobile might be used to automatically regulate the flow thru the system. I use an outboard motor thermostat on my generator heat exchanger to modulate the flow thru the secondary side of the heat exchanger to deliver 120F water to my storage tank regardless of generator load. A modern twist on this, that would be adjustable would be to use a thermostatically controlled electrically actuated valve. That in conjunction with a recirc line or a smaller or variable speed pump would make it quiet and self adjusting...
chrsUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:136

--
01 Nov 2015 04:28 AM
Given the pump and dump setup, shared with the potable water system, I assume, one possibility would be to set the pressure on the pump control to a lower pressure. If you don't have any room to do that without being unhappy with the pressure at your shower, etc., a more complex and expensive solution would be to add a second booster pump and small andpressure tank for the potable water, and keep the main pressure tank at a very low pressure, so you get the right flow with the valve wide open.

Starting with "nothing can be changed" is a good way to miss some good possibilities-- maybe one of my suggestions, but also ideas others might offer.

Ronmar, is there another thread where you describe what sounds like a home brew chp or cogen system? Backup power and heat all in one or do you run it more often?
chrsUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:136

--
01 Nov 2015 07:39 AM
Other ideas, less energy efficient:

A "globe" valve is likely quieter than a ball valve.

If you locate the valve downstream of the heat pump, close to where it discharges, maybe that can be somewhere where you won't hear the noise.

You could also splice in a length of thinner pipe somewhere in the path to add resistance.
ronmarUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:479

--
01 Nov 2015 01:39 PM
I may have described it here, but I don't recall where exactly. It is only configured as a backup. 3KW slow speed liquid cooled diesel with a heatex instead of a radiator on the generator to keep domestic hot water tank charged. Excess heat after that is dumped thru a fan coil either inside the house or outside as needed before the water is circed back to the heatex to cool the generator... Oh, and I use a recirc line and valve connecting ifrom pump outlet back to inlet on my circ pump in that system to adjust the single speed pump flow down to a level that allows steady flow thru my heatexchanger to keep it from over flowing the thermostat. Makes for a steady fluid output instead of a pulsing output...
chrsUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:136

--
03 Nov 2015 06:27 PM
Thanks for the description of the cogen system. I've sometimes thought about doing something like that...on a geo system my heat is gone when the power goes out, and that could be a nice way to provide backup heat and power, without needing a big enough generator to power the geo system. But I think we'll instead install a wood stove since we've got a spot for it and a big pile of scrap wood to burn.
marqUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:7

--
14 Nov 2015 09:00 AM
Anybody ever seen these variable ball valves?

http://www.plastomatic.com/ball_valves.html

They look very efficient regarding flow control, nothing about noise.

Recirc line? a second line around the GEO which would draw off some of the GPM from the main line? Main line is 1" so assume something smaller 3/4". But this would have to be throttled also, am I just creating a new noise source.
chrsUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:136

--
14 Nov 2015 11:05 AM
Those look like a good solution to a different problem than the problem you have.

You've gotten lots of good ideas here already. What don't you like about them? If you explain what the sticking point is we can help find a solution.
mtrentwUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:128

--
16 Nov 2015 07:03 AM
If you don't want to trouble with a dual pump solution, why not just reduce the size of the main line. Try 3/4" or even 1/2" . Try both and see if one of them gets you where you need to be on flow.
chrsUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:136

--
17 Nov 2015 06:11 PM
Or get a 25 ft roll of 1/2" pex. Connect it to the outflow. See what flow you get with the valve wide open, at which point the flow will probably be less than you want. Then start cutting off more and more of the pex until you get the flow you want.
engineerUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2749

--
27 Nov 2015 08:55 PM
I really have to question whether pump and dumps that run geo systems that need about 5 PSI across heat exhanger with water at typical domestic pressure (~50) really save much energy. Pumping energy is huge and often blissfully ignored.

One approach might be to dial the primary well pump pressure down to what the geo needs without throttling and then configure a cheap surface pump and tank to service the home domestic water. Geo system needs anywhere from 10-100x amount of water vs the house, so it really pays not to pressurize all that water to such excess and then throttle it back.

It is often the case that noise = inefficiency, and that is likely the case here.
Curt Kinder <br><br>

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
G.O. JoeUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:110

--
01 Dec 2015 05:29 PM
Any valve will make noise if the pressure drop is around 8 psi or greater across the valve. We use fixed gpm flow controls such as Hays and have a ball valve after it to adjust until the noise is abated. Double check flow rate when done and remove the handle on the ball so no one bumps it.

Basically you need to spread the pressure drop out across the system so no single component has enough pressure drop to create noise. This can be done by-
1- Reducing inlet pressure
2- Reducing pipe size
3- Increasing pipe length
4- Increasing back pressure

My 3 ton unit is piped with washing machine hoses. Works like a charm. YMMV depending on pressure settings and piping.
BluephrogUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:1

--
20 Dec 2015 09:55 PM
Had a similar problem with water valve noise using a standard variable valve. Originally did this so I could adjust water flow for best efficency. I use a variable speed water pump (only runs fast enough to maintain set psi) which I can set the pressure from 30 to 100 PSI. I have it set for 60 psi. I reduced the water noise by using 3 - 1/2 pipes with 2 control solenoids and one heat valve. Heat valve actuates with the GEO unit start (no noise) and the solenoids actuate to maintain 6 degrees between in and out. Works well and can barely hear any water noise.
jonrUser is Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member
Send Private Message
Posts:5341

--
21 Dec 2015 07:56 AM
Bluephrog: Pumping up to 60 psi and then reducing it down with a restriction is inefficient (in terms of energy use). You can't control the pump speed based on the delta-T?
G.O. JoeUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:110

--
21 Dec 2015 08:52 AM
jonr I agree that reducing down is inefficient. When sharing a domestic water supply with geo open loop system that inefficiency has to be quantified and compared with the cost to implement, control and run a 2 pump (2 pressure) system. In many simple small residential systems the ROI will not be there. However, it should be considered as an option.
jonrUser is Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member
Send Private Message
Posts:5341

--
21 Dec 2015 06:02 PM
I agree. But it would be nice to see more people documenting exactly what is required (for both dual pump and single, variable speed, dual-pressure pump) and the costs and savings. I suspect that many people with open loop geo would find it worth the cost (perhaps +$600?).
You are not authorized to post a reply.

Active Forums 4.1
Membership Membership: Latest New User Latest: janvin New Today New Today: 0 New Yesterday New Yesterday: 0 User Count Overall: 34705
People Online People Online: Visitors Visitors: 160 Members Members: 2 Total Total: 162
Copyright 2011 by BuildCentral, Inc.   Terms Of Use  Privacy Statement