My experience with Climatemaster Tranquility 27 System
Last Post 09 Apr 2013 08:53 AM by joe.ami. 40 Replies.
Author Messages
jvkUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:29

--
24 Dec 2008 12:13 AM

It has been exactly one year since I had a Tranquility 27 (5 T) system installed in my home.  I have two 380 ft closed vertical loops connected in parallel.  I have been very happy with the performance thus far.  For your review I post below my electric bills for 2006, 2007 and 2008.

Note that before I went with the Geothermal system in 2008, I had a propane fired furnace (100,000 Btu) and a 4 T AC unit.  I was roughly using 1000 g of propane in addition to electricity.  Current price for propane is $2.39/Gallon.  

 In 2008 my propane consumption has gone down significantly because now propane supplies energy to just the tankless water heater.

Also in 2008, during the heating season I kept the set point the same as previous years.  But during the cooling season of 2008, I kept the setpoint 3 to 4 deg F lower than the previous years because I wanted to be comfortable and take advantage of the geothermal system.



  Yr 2006 Yr 2007 Yr 2008
January $111 $109 $172
February $81 $98 $178
March $93 $102 $138
April $72 $80 $115
May $67 $70 $87
June $82 $101 $118
July $188 $161 $166
August $237 $207 $173
September $117 $167 $167
October $80 $114 $96
November $90 $82 $107
December $94 $145 $168
Total $1,312 $1,435 $1,684


You can seed that for me, going to Geothermal system was a "no brainer".  It may not be the same for others, who may have a different situation.

Regards,

VK

jvkUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:29

--
24 Dec 2008 12:15 AM

I apologize for the highlighted text in my original message, above. 

I am not sure what I did there.

VK

Palace GeothermalUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:1609

--
24 Dec 2008 01:19 AM
So...VK do I read your chart to say that your electric bill from 2007 to 2008 went up $249 after adding geothermal and now your only propane cost is heating hot water?
Dewayne Dean

<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system
conniepanganUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:112

--
24 Dec 2008 10:26 AM
How big is your house?
Dean in EdmontonUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:16

--
24 Dec 2008 04:56 PM
Great post, thanks for the numbers.

Dean
jvkUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:29

--
24 Dec 2008 09:19 PM
Dewayne,

Yes you concluded correctly that my cost went up only marginally. I have kept account of each bill and I can assure you that the numbers are correct.

However, as you know very well, a better way to present the data would be in terms of KWhr consumed each month. I have attached that data for 2007 and 2008, below. The reason why the whole thing works so well for me is the following:

I live in SE PA and my utility company is PECO part of the Excelon Corporation. My regular rate for 2007 was about $0.149 per KWhr and in the summer $0.169/KWhr about 600 kWhr used. When I went to the geothermal system I received an all electric rate - in the heating months $0.149 per KWhr for first 600 KWhr consumed and then $0.079/ KWhr above that. In the summer months I do not get a break and the rates are as they were for the summer of 2007.

As you can see that I get some advantage from the all electric rate. But if you see the KWhr consumption below you will agree that the savings are still pretty good.

 

 

2007 KW hr

2008 KWhr

January

732

1673

February

658

1775

March

685

1278

April

537

899

May

470

560

June

678

739

July

1077

1027

August

1392

1067

September

1118

1034

October

765

636

November

550

791

December

973

1644

 


Connie:
My total area for first and second floor is 3700 sq ft. I have roughly 1800 sqft in the basement and that is not heated.

Dean:
Thanks

Best regards and warmest wishes for the holidays.

VK

croakerUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:6

--
30 Dec 2008 01:11 PM
VK, I'm also in SE PA and will have my geothermal system turned on next Monday, 1/5/09.  I'm looking forward to seeing the same savings.  I've also got PECO coming out to verify the install to get the all electric rate although I was unaware of the 600 KW at full rate.  Do your numbers include running a desuperheater for your hot water?  I'll have this going as well and I hope to save as much propane as possible.  Who did your install and wells?
Bruce FreyUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:429

--
31 Dec 2008 05:11 AM
Posted By jvk on 12/24/2008 9:19 PM
Dewayne,

Yes you concluded correctly that my cost went up only marginally. I have kept account of each bill and I can assure you that the numbers are correct.




A better comparison would be total energy (gas+electricity) cost and consumption.  You have essentially changed from gas powered heating to electrical powered heating so naturally your power consumption has gone up.  The big savings is in gas.

Bruce
jvkUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:29

--
03 Jan 2009 10:03 AM
I hope you and your family will enjoy your new geothermal system. If my experience is the norm, you will not be disappointed.

No I did not have the desuperheater hooked up yet so the numbers do not include hot water usage. I currently have a tankless water heater, which I will have linked to the desuperheater and a storage tank.

The wells were drilled by Sensenig and Weaver and the geothermal installation was done by Allen Lawver of Apex Geothermal - they have a home page on the web. Both companies are some where in the Lancaster/ Reading area but also serve the Philadelphia and northern Delaware area.

Bruce,

You are absolutely right. However, I did state in my original post that my rough propane usage was 1000 gallons/year before I went with geothermal system. Now I only use propane to power my tankless water heater.

Regards,

VK
AltonUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2157

--
03 Jan 2009 11:46 AM

JVK,

Will your tankless water heater accept pre-heated water from your desuperheater?  I have heard that some of the tankless units can not use pre-heated water.  Maybe someone can explain this.

Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979
geo fanUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:408

--
03 Jan 2009 11:57 AM
GE makes one that will , that is a problem with most gas tankless though
Bruce FreyUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:429

--
03 Jan 2009 12:21 PM

Bruce,

You are absolutely right. However, I did state in my original post that my rough propane usage was 1000 gallons/year before I went with geothermal system. Now I only use propane to power my tankless water heater.

Regards,

VK

I know your electrical bill went up by $249.  How much did your propane use drop in gallons (or $)? 

Bruce
croakerUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:6

--
03 Feb 2009 09:48 AM
I wanted to post a quick follow up to VK concerning the success of my Geothermal install.  My system went online on 1/5/2009, just in time for some of the most frigid weather I've seen in SE PA in a long time.  I've got two Tranquility split units, a 3 ton for upstairs, and a four ton for downstairs and the soon to finished basement.  At this point I've only got one month of electric to compare but with the PECO rate cut I'm already seeing some savings.

For January 2009 I've spent $247 on 2689 KWH of electric.  In January of 2008 I spent $275 on 1863 KWH of electric.  My units have been running pretty constantly for the whole month to keep up with the temps.  I've set the thermostats at 66 for upstairs and 69 for downstairs, up from 65 for upstairs and 67 for downstairs when I used propane.  I've only had the Aux heat come on once for about 10 minutes when it was -5 with the wind chill.  I am using the desuperheater on the 4 ton unit and it seems to be producing most if not all of my hot water.  I haven't been able to catch the propane water heater running yet, so I'm not sure if it ever runs. 

At this point my propane use has been about zero for the month.  The percentage gauge on my tank was at 62% on the day we turned on the Geothermal and it shows 62% today.  We still use propane for the stove and I'm guessing that the hot water heater is using some propane but so far it's been very minimal. 

EWT has hit a low of 40 deg. but usually hovers around 44.  The loop has been doing a great job of keeping up so far.  There's about 1300' of closed loop in four holes.

I'm trying to get my neighbors propane usage for the month to try and get a handle on how much I've saved in propane. 

So far I am very happy with my system.  I went into this expecting a lot and I'm very surprised that my expectations have been exceeded.  Now if I can only get a full 30% tax break from the federal government ....

Thanks to all for the very informative info on this board.  Now onto solar.
DrDullUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:14

--
10 May 2009 11:50 AM
I have the same question as Alton Keown.  Is there a way to take advantage of the HWG in a Tranquility 27 in conjunction with a gas tankless whole-house hot water system?  Even if not directly fed to the HWH, it seems that by installing a buffer tank between the HWG and HWH would reduce the energy consumption of the HWH.  If the GWHP is not running, you haven't lost anything. 
jdowdleUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:17

--
30 May 2009 06:43 AM
Posted By croaker on 02/03/2009 9:48 AM
I wanted to post a quick follow up to VK concerning the success of my Geothermal install.  My system went online on 1/5/2009, just in time for some of the most frigid weather I've seen in SE PA in a long time.  I've got two Tranquility split units, a 3 ton for upstairs, and a four ton for downstairs and the soon to finished basement.  At this point I've only got one month of electric to compare but with the PECO rate cut I'm already seeing some savings.

For January 2009 I've spent $247 on 2689 KWH of electric.  In January of 2008 I spent $275 on 1863 KWH of electric.  My units have been running pretty constantly for the whole month to keep up with the temps.  I've set the thermostats at 66 for upstairs and 69 for downstairs, up from 65 for upstairs and 67 for downstairs when I used propane.  I've only had the Aux heat come on once for about 10 minutes when it was -5 with the wind chill.  I am using the desuperheater on the 4 ton unit and it seems to be producing most if not all of my hot water.  I haven't been able to catch the propane water heater running yet, so I'm not sure if it ever runs. 

At this point my propane use has been about zero for the month.  The percentage gauge on my tank was at 62% on the day we turned on the Geothermal and it shows 62% today.  We still use propane for the stove and I'm guessing that the hot water heater is using some propane but so far it's been very minimal. 

EWT has hit a low of 40 deg. but usually hovers around 44.  The loop has been doing a great job of keeping up so far.  There's about 1300' of closed loop in four holes.

I'm trying to get my neighbors propane usage for the month to try and get a handle on how much I've saved in propane. 

So far I am very happy with my system.  I went into this expecting a lot and I'm very surprised that my expectations have been exceeded.  Now if I can only get a full 30% tax break from the federal government ....

Thanks to all for the very informative info on this board.  Now onto solar.

Croaker, what did you pay for your installation, and who makes TRanquility again?

thx
jdowdleUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:17

--
30 May 2009 06:43 AM
Posted By croaker on 02/03/2009 9:48 AM
I wanted to post a quick follow up to VK concerning the success of my Geothermal install.  My system went online on 1/5/2009, just in time for some of the most frigid weather I've seen in SE PA in a long time.  I've got two Tranquility split units, a 3 ton for upstairs, and a four ton for downstairs and the soon to finished basement.  At this point I've only got one month of electric to compare but with the PECO rate cut I'm already seeing some savings.

For January 2009 I've spent $247 on 2689 KWH of electric.  In January of 2008 I spent $275 on 1863 KWH of electric.  My units have been running pretty constantly for the whole month to keep up with the temps.  I've set the thermostats at 66 for upstairs and 69 for downstairs, up from 65 for upstairs and 67 for downstairs when I used propane.  I've only had the Aux heat come on once for about 10 minutes when it was -5 with the wind chill.  I am using the desuperheater on the 4 ton unit and it seems to be producing most if not all of my hot water.  I haven't been able to catch the propane water heater running yet, so I'm not sure if it ever runs. 

At this point my propane use has been about zero for the month.  The percentage gauge on my tank was at 62% on the day we turned on the Geothermal and it shows 62% today.  We still use propane for the stove and I'm guessing that the hot water heater is using some propane but so far it's been very minimal. 

EWT has hit a low of 40 deg. but usually hovers around 44.  The loop has been doing a great job of keeping up so far.  There's about 1300' of closed loop in four holes.

I'm trying to get my neighbors propane usage for the month to try and get a handle on how much I've saved in propane. 

So far I am very happy with my system.  I went into this expecting a lot and I'm very surprised that my expectations have been exceeded.  Now if I can only get a full 30% tax break from the federal government ....

Thanks to all for the very informative info on this board.  Now onto solar.


joe.amiUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:4377
Avatar

--
31 May 2009 07:20 AM
Posted By DrDull on 05/10/2009 11:50 AM
I have the same question as Alton Keown.  Is there a way to take advantage of the HWG in a Tranquility 27 in conjunction with a gas tankless whole-house hot water system?  



This has been discussed at length in another thread. I don't remember the title, but you will recognize it for what it is.
j
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
In the knowUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:14

--
14 Nov 2010 08:04 PM
Thanks for sharing this data.>Can you please share your total cost of your GEOTHERMAL UNIT installation before taxes. This would be greatly appreciated. Best Regards; In the know.
In the knowUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:14

--
14 Nov 2010 08:18 PM
JVK, Thanks for sharing this data. Great savings. Can you please also share your TOTAL COST of your GEOTHERMAL UNIT installation before taxes. This would be greatly appreciated. Best Regards. In the know.
hongUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:10

--
18 Jan 2011 05:43 PM
Dear Sir, I have installed the Tranquility 27 5T 2-stage heat pump in my home. it is a new construction finished this last November. 5500sf (2700 sf per level rancher). it seems that good portion of the time both stage are on, even when the inside temp meets the thermostat. temp. My daily useage in Dec in the Northwest as 130 kwh/day. Although I have almost all things heated by electric (Avista Utilities), lighting are only minimal (with 100% CFL and LED lighting). the only bigger kwh use appliance is the 50 galon electric heat tank.

My question is: will this 5 Ton Tranquility 27 sufficient for this house? and does this system seems functioning correctly?

tks. for your advise.

Hong
ICFHybridUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:3039

--
18 Jan 2011 07:32 PM
Hong: what is your zip code? The Northwest covers a pretty wide range of climates.
hongUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:10

--
18 Jan 2011 07:58 PM
Tks. For the fast help. My zip code is 99019, Liberty Lake, Washington. Hong
hongUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:10

--
18 Jan 2011 08:00 PM
Tks. My zip code is 99019, Liberty Lake, Washington. Hong
engineerUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2749

--
18 Jan 2011 11:43 PM
Hong,

There is a sticky thread here for new members with questions about their system. It lists a few questions we need answered in order to help you.

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/13/aft/76608/afv/topic/afnp/79135/Default.aspx
Curt Kinder <br><br>

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
hongUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:10

--
19 Jan 2011 03:18 AM
Hi Kurt, tks. for the reply. 

1) Where you live:  Spokane, Washington.
2) Heat loss/gain calculations for your home:  I do not know how to calculate this.  it is a new construction meeting next year's new code.  49R on the ceiling and 21R on the wall
3) Brand, size (model), age and type of heat pump:  ClimateMaster Tranquility 27 2-stage, 5 ton, Model # TTV064AGC01ALKS
4) Type of loop field (open/closed/vertical/horizontal) size and design parameters: 5 200' deep vertical loops.  Each is supposed to produce one ton of BTU
5) Average cost/Kwh of electricity and consumption:  $0.08 to $0.09/Kwh depending on the usage.  Underneath is the actual meter reading and the Kwh usage since I moved into the new house.
6) Entering and leaving air temperatures (EAT, LAT) measured immediately upstream and downstream of the heatpump:  I do not know how to do this. 
7) Entering and leaving water temperatures (EWT, LWT) measured at the geo system:  I do not know how to do this.
8) Percent of load to be covered by geo and balance point:  I do not know.
9) Installer's assessment of your systems operation.:  he said that it is OK.  but he did say something that I believe it is incorrect.  that is Stage 1 heat will generate 55% and the Stage 2 will generate up to 100% (including both stages).  The unit say loudly that the Stage 1 generate about 67% before Stage 2 kicks in.   But most of the time even when the thermostats temp still satisfy the requested temp, both stages heat got turned on, then maybe later Stage 2 got turned off, then Stage 1 got turned off.  But after about 10 mins, both stages got turned on again and the cycle begins. 
10) Projected operating costs, actual operating cost and previous heating and cooling costs:  this is a new house and we just begin to live in.  no comparison.  but with this Geo system I am using just about the same cost as the neighbors that uses forced air system. 

Huang Avista Electric Meter Analysis
Date Days between Reading
    Meter Read (KWH)   Actual Usage (KWH) Daily     Usage (KWH/day)
10/26/10

768

11/24/10 29
3245 2477 85.41
12/27/10 33
7220 3975 120.45
01/06/11 10
8568 1348 134.80
01/07/11 1
8710 142 142.00
01/08/11 1
8856 146 146.00
01/09/11 1
8990 134 134.00
01/10/11 1
9127 137 137.00
01/11/11 1
9273 146 146.00
01/12/11 1
9418 145 145.00
01/13/11 1
9526 108 108.00
01/14/11 1
9621 95 95.00
01/15/11 1
9720 99 99.00
01/16/11 1
9814 94 94.00
01/17/11 1
9912 98 98.00
01/18/11 1
10013 101 101.00

ICFHybridUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:3039

--
19 Jan 2011 11:03 AM
Is it keeping you warm?

Your unit is rated for 5 tons cooling. Heating output is more like 48kBTU which, at a COP of 3.5 is 4kW/hr running flat out. That's 90-100 kWh per day which would account for your usage.

Doesn't look like you have an aux electrical coil, do you?

That's a huge house in a higher-than-average heating area. What happened on Jan 14-17? Did you leave for the weekend or was it because the temperature came way up during that time?
DickRussellUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:182

--
19 Jan 2011 03:07 PM
The CM Tranquility 27 model TT064 does have a 5 ton rated heating capacity, but that's at 50 F entering water temperature (EWT), as shown in their online documentation, page 67 of this:

http://www.climatemaster.com/share/Res_All_Products_CLM/Section_3_TT27.pdf

At only 30 EWT the heating capacity is only 4 tons.
engineerUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2749

--
19 Jan 2011 03:53 PM
You have daily readings since 7 Jan. I took a quick look at Spokane Airport temps this month

warm on the 7th, near normal 8th, cool 9th, very very cold 10th, 11th, normal on 12th, very very mild since then, but getting ready to cool back down. Average temp for this time of year is upper 20s.

The initial read on 10/26 - 768 kwh was for how many days? Reason I ask is to try to determine base load for house - net of heating or cooling, and October is often a good month to figure that. I would need the days you lived in the home

A $14 digital meat thermometer from Walmart is good for entering or leaving air temps. If there is a Petsmart outlet nearby $10 gets you a Topfin aquarium thermometer - same idea, possibly more accurate, 5 second update times.

for water temps tape the thermometer probe tip to a metal part of the loop plumbing, such as the square bronze fitting right outside the cabinet. Fold a small piece of aluminum foil a couple times, partly wrap the end of the probe in foil and tape the combination to metal. Insulate that with a rag and note readings when they stabilize.

Installer should have done a load calculation before selecting the unit's capacity - ask to see it.

Looking at more Spokane weather data, December was only about 15% colder (1096 vs 948 degree days) but your whole house kwh usage nearly doubled - were you fully moved in between 10/26 and 11/24?

I suspect some aux strip usage - the trick will be to try to find out why.



Curt Kinder <br><br>

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
hongUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:10

--
19 Jan 2011 04:21 PM
Tks. a million for all these great help here. Let me reply each with your text included:

Is it keeping you warm?: A: yes it does keep the house at the target temp. Upstairs at 70F and basement at 69F 24/7 now. In December, which is the first month after we moved in (we moved in during the Thanksgiving holidays). I followed Honeywell thermostat's 4 different temp setting and the huge change between sleep and day time probably kicked start the Aux heat and I didn't notice (at sleep). I changed the setting right after the first of January

Your unit is rated for 5 tons cooling. Heating output is more like 48kBTU which, at a COP of 3.5 is 4kW/hr running flat out. That's 90-100 kWh per day which would account for your usage.: Q: are you saying that my Geo heat pump is marginally sufficient for my house and need to use 90 to 100Kwh every day without considering how high or low the temp?

Doesn't look like you have an aux electrical coil, do you? A: yes there is an Aux electrical coil for emergency heating. It also can heat the water during the summer but is not connected yet due to the winter season. is this correct? I have 2 50 gallon tanks and I am only using one (electric) now.

That's a huge house in a higher-than-average heating area. What happened on Jan 14-17? Did you leave for the weekend or was it because the temperature came way up during that time? A: the temperature went up to the 40's during those days.
hongUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:10

--
19 Jan 2011 04:24 PM
Hi Dick, tks. for the help here.

The CM Tranquility 27 model TT064 does have a 5 ton rated heating capacity, but that's at 50 F entering water temperature (EWT), as shown in their online documentation, page 67 of this:

http://www.climatemaster.com/share/Res_All_Products_CLM/Section_3_TT27.pdf

At only 30 EWT the heating capacity is only 4 tons.: Q: are you saying that the EWT at 30 is the water temp from outside? I thought for heating purpose, the 5 200' deep vertical pipes has the constant temp. of about 55 F. What does this 30 mean? tks.

Hong
hongUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:10

--
19 Jan 2011 04:37 PM
Hi Kurt,

tks. for your help!

You have daily readings since 7 Jan. I took a quick look at Spokane Airport temps this month

warm on the 7th, near normal 8th, cool 9th, very very cold 10th, 11th, normal on 12th, very very mild since then, but getting ready to cool back down. Average temp for this time of year is upper 20s.: A: tks. for the checking. you are correct.

The initial read on 10/26 - 768 kwh was for how many days?A: it is for the month of Oct. But it is not a good indicator as in October the construction is still going on. The Geo was in the testing mode and there is no way of knowing what is for Geo and what for construction usage. Reason I ask is to try to determine base load for house - net of heating or cooling, and October is often a good month to figure that. I would need the days you lived in the home: A: We did not move into this new house until the Thanksgiving day.

A $14 digital meat thermometer from Walmart is good for entering or leaving air temps. If there is a Petsmart outlet nearby $10 gets you a Topfin aquarium thermometer - same idea, possibly more accurate, 5 second update times.: A: tks. I will go buy one.

for water temps(Q: why do we need to test the water temp? ) tape the thermometer probe tip to a metal part of the loop plumbing, such as the square bronze fitting right outside the cabinet ( Q: what cabinet? the Tranquility 27? and where? please help me with a bit more advice on the specific location. Too bad the site does not allow me to upload pictures) . Fold a small piece of aluminum foil a couple times, partly wrap the end of the probe in foil and tape the combination to metal. Insulate that with a rag and note readings when they stabilize.

Installer should have done a load calculation before selecting the unit's capacity - ask to see it. A: I will. tks.

Looking at more Spokane weather data, December was only about 15% colder (1096 vs 948 degree days) but your whole house kwh usage nearly doubled - were you fully moved in between 10/26 and 11/24? A: we started moving in right around Nov. 24th.

I suspect some aux strip usage - the trick will be to try to find out why? A: I love to find out why but with my observation it seems very rare that the Aux heat is turned on unless the requested temp is 6 to 7 degrees above the existing temp.
ICFHybridUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:3039

--
19 Jan 2011 11:37 PM
What does this 30 mean?
It's just a standard rating condition. The Standard rating condition for the heating side is an EWT of 32F. It doesn't have anything to do with what you are actually seeing. Assuming your EWT is higher you will have higher performance.
hongUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:10

--
21 Jan 2011 12:50 AM
Hi Kurt and the other engineers, tks for the quick response. I have replied to your questions after your comment/questions. Any further help? tks. a lot. Hong
ICFHybridUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:3039

--
21 Jan 2011 11:01 AM
Q: why do we need to test the water temp?
The water temperatures and the flow rates are measures of the heat available to the heat pump. If you think of the temperatures as a gradient, the work the heat pump has to do is to pick up heat at the low temperature (from the loop) and push it uphill (to the air coming out the vents). The colder the water or the warmer the air, the more work (electrical power consumption) needs to be done. That data helps make some determinations as to how efficiently the heat pump is operating.

People have also been trying to figure out how much electricity is being used for your heating and for other purposes. Your electrical readings give the total amount, but the trick is figuring out how much your particular home uses for heating versus lighting, hot water, cooking, etc. With what you said in the other thread about observing a 20A total draw when the heat was full on, that would be consistent with your heat pump running on full. Since the units should be properly sized to handle near peak loads (the coldest days), that would also fit since you experienced some pretty cold weather during this time.

Without knowing what auxiliary heat element is installed in your furnace (if any), it is hard to say if you can detect aux heat usage from the summary electrical data. If you had the smallest element, it might sneak some burn time in there among the kilowatts used, but if you had the large one, you'd probably see more usage than you do. It uses on the order of 20 kW, or upwards of 80A. Would you notice that on your meter?

My guess is that what you are seeing is pretty much the usage of your heat pump during cold weather. You need the operating parameters to have a service engineer determine if it is operating at peak efficiency and whether your ground loop is performing well. You saw that when the weather warmed up, your electrical usage decreased, which is appropriate to the heat losses from your home. Appropriate, but without knowing your home heat-loss design parameters or an on-site energy audit, one can't say whether it is optimized or not. That's a big home. If you assume that 50kWh/day go to hot water and other uses, and normal heat pump operation, you are right in there at about 5 BTU/SF/HDD with a bit more at the warmer temps which is another clue that you don't have a big problem with using resistance heat (aux).

That being said, there might be some improvements you can do to reduce the heat loss from your home. If your heat pump is operating near capacity for whatever reason, reducing your home's needs (particularly during the coldest weather) can help ensure that you stay in the "sweet spot" for the furnace.
LoobyUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:401
Avatar

--
21 Jan 2011 11:38 AM
Posted By ICFHybrid on 21 Jan 2011 11:01 AM

If you assume that 50kWh/day go to hot water and other uses ...
Hmm... 50 kWh per day base load?

...that's a lotta grow lights!

Looby

One measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions.
ICFHybridUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:3039

--
21 Jan 2011 08:14 PM
...that's a lotta grow lights!
Nintendo. ;-)

At 5500 sf, that's a pretty big house. They tend to attract the little here, little there energy eaters.

Not too long ago I got rid of one of the 2500 sf architect-designed ranch homes from 1950. Gas furnace and everything else electric. 60kWh/day.
LoobyUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:401
Avatar

--
21 Jan 2011 11:11 PM
Posted By ICFHybrid on 21 Jan 2011 08:14 PM
... 2500 sf architect-designed ranch homes from 1950.
Gas furnace and everything else electric. 60kWh/day.
Where was that? ...Murmansk?

We just finished our second complete year on geo, in
a 57 year old, 2200 sf ranch -- on a heavily wooded
lot with near-zero solar gain (Philly 'burbs).

Two-year average (incl. 2 cold winters) = 35 kWh/day
for HVAC, HW, cooking, lighting, absolutely everything.
System = 3-ton WF Envision NDV038, closed, vertical
(retrofitted to replace oil-fired hot water baseboard).

BTW, shoulder season base load is about 11 kWh/day.

One measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions.
ICFHybridUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:3039

--
22 Jan 2011 12:37 AM
Where was that? ...Murmansk?
Ha Ha. Believe it or not it was the Pacific Northwest. A mild maritime climate.
johnlangUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:1

--
08 Apr 2013 03:37 PM
My wife and I installed the Climate Master Tranquility 27 in 2011. 

It seemed to perform well for a period, but then degraded.  Freon was added twice.  This year, it was determined that the freon was leaking from the coil.  Even though I have a parts and labor warranty, I'll still be charged over $1,000 total to diagnose ad repair the unit as the warranty says that  they only provide a "labor allowance:"  Two lessons learned:
  1. Watch the performance of the unit over time.  If it is degrading, check the Freon.  It shouldn't require Freon replacement in the closed unit.
  2. Consider that the cost of the extended parts and labor warranty does not cover the full cost of labor to make any repair.
Bottom line,  we haven't yet seen any savings from the unit.  It runs continuously, and can't seem to bring the temp in the winter above 61 degrees.  And with the exorbitant maintenance costs, I couldn't possibly recommend this unit.
decafdrinkerUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:420

--
08 Apr 2013 10:02 PM
Hey, vk,
Like you, I've seen some great performance from my geomax climate master 4 ton on a 2100 sq ft house. I posted my electric bills (cost of just hvac) on my wel site. WEL0487

Looking over the year, the average is $50 per month with a rate of about 11 c/kWh.

Previous owners had oil baseboard and their bils were between $300 and $500 every month summer or winter for oil.

The other day at work, I overheard someone saying their electric bill was $400 last month. Mine was $190 if I include $90 for heat and about $100 base usage.
I said, "wow! I don't know what I'd do if I got an electric bill for $400."
She asked what mine was.
I said, "$190".
She said, "yes, but that's only your electric. What was gas?"
Me:"no gas or oil, all electric."
Her:"WOW!"
I'm also in SE PA.
joe.amiUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:4377
Avatar

--
09 Apr 2013 08:53 AM
John,
The thing we harp on most is installer when people ask for in a new geo. If you are not seeing savings and since most anyone would repair a leak for a$1,000 I think you should solicit second opinions (yes more than one).
Find a good geo pro and you should be happy.
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!


---
Active Forums 4.1