We would like to replace our OLD gas forced air furnace and electric AC with geothermal heat pump.  We have had 3 quotes.  One from a company that handles the loop drilling as well as the unit installation and they sell Florida Heat pumps.  They recommended a 4 ton unit and suggested a 5 ton loop to add some extra efficiency since our home is more like a 4.5 ton.  The other two companies sell climatemaster.  We would have to get our own well driller to do the loops.  The climatemaster folks did not think we needed more than 4 ton loops.  There was a $2000 difference between the two climatemaster companies for the same unit (the tranquility 27 - which is 2 stage).  The more expensive company said that they do not cut corners in installation and that is why they are more expensive.  They also said that the Florida heat pump is not a great option since the parts are not always available locally (for us).  He said they serviced one once and it took a month to get parts.  Of course, they have an interest in dissuading us from going with FHP.  He said if we wanted to get closer in price to the other cheaper climatemaster installer we could go with the tranquility 20 which is one stage.  So the options we have are a bit confusing.  As I see it our choices are: 

1) Florida Heat Pump AP049, 2 stage 4 ton unit with 4 ton loop system
2) Florida Heat Pump AP049, 2 stage 4 ton unit with 5 ton loop system
3) Climatemaster tranquility 20 (one stage) 4 ton unit with 4 ton loop system
4) Climatemaster tranquility 27 (two stage) 4 ton unit with the 4 ton loop system

All companies have been doing geothermal for years.  The company that does FHP does geothermal almost exclusively.  The Climatemaster folks do other plumbing as well as conventional units.  With the climatemaster folks, we have to choose our own well drilling company. 

I would appreciate any input into our options and how to choose.  Thanks.

Posted By ajspan on 28 Jul 2010 11:05 AM
There was a $2000 difference between the two climatemaster companies for the same unit (the tranquility 27 - which is 2 stage).  The more expensive company said that they do not cut corners in installation and that is why they are more expensive.

Unless they are willing to back up their statement of not cutting corners with specifics (that you can compare to the other quote), I would put no stock in this.  I'm sure the other company will tell you they don't cut corners either.    It could be that they have higher profit levels or higher overhead, for example.  Sometimes you do indeed get more for paying more, and sometimes you just pay more.  On the other hand, maybe the lower bidding company is more efficient, has lower profit margin, or lower overhead.  Hard to tell.

Your best bet is to talk to each installer in more detail, check all references and check BBB rating (even though this suggestion is not very popular amongst some installers) to help you make a decision.  Personally I don't like the idea of suggesting a lower end unit (single stage) to get the price down.  Sounds like a form of cutting corners to me.

I checked the BBB ratings. The less expensive company for Climatemaster is A+ with no complaints and a BBB member. The $2000 more company is A- with 3 complaints in the last 36 mos and not a BBB member. The FHP company is rated A with 1 complaint in the last 36 mos and not a BBB member. My gut also says stick with the 2 stage and drop the expensive company. Then the issue boils down to:

1) Florida Heat Pump AP049, 2 stage 4 ton unit with 4 ton loop system
2) Florida Heat Pump AP049, 2 stage 4 ton unit with 5 ton loop system
3) Climatemaster tranquility 27 (two stage) 4 ton unit with the 4 ton loop system

Price based option 1 and 3 are the same, but with option 1 one company does it all. With option 3 we do our own subcontracting for the well drilling. I am not sure if we need option 2, but the guy from the company that does FHP suggested that it would raise the efficiency of the system and meet our home's needs a bit better. He also said that he has been doing geothermal for decades and used to work for the electrical company doing energy efficiency work. But adding another ton of loop is about $1500. That adds more time to the amount of time it would take to recoup costs.

Which bidder performed Manual J load calculations?

Did any bidder assess current ductwork and its ability to move the needed air to meet heat load using geo?

In a heating dominated climate an issue arises when converting from fossil forced hot air to geo forced warm air - geo raises air temp by only 1/3 to 1/2 as much as fossil, so needs to blow 2-3 times more air to move the same btus. This may be less of of an issue if your present furnace is oversized, but bidders should assess this issue and advise their findings.

I read about the manual J load in the forums, but none of the folks we had out mentioned them. So it is hard to say what might have been calculated behind the scenes. Some felt more salesman like than expert. All of them claimed to be non-commissioned.

One guy said that if we went larger than 4 tons the ductwork would not be sufficient. Other than that no specific comments. I did see it on the post about questions to ask, but alas it was too late. I plan to follow up now that we have quotes.

I think that I am still confused about the suggestion that one had to do a 4 ton unit, but do 5 tons worth of piping in the wells. He said that would increase the efficiency and bring it closer to a 4.5 ton. I asked the other two about that and neither had an idea how that might help. I might just have to go back to the source. The source happens to be from the company that does almost exclusively geothermal.

Another question has arisen. What do we do for the water heater? We have a gas 75 gallon right now that is 19 yrs old. We were planning to replace it. One person suggested a new 75 gal gas and a tempering tank. Another said 2, 50 gal electric. Another said whatever I want. The guy that recommended gas said that it is the most efficient, and why switch to electric when we are interested in efficiency.

A job that I am designing currently would absolutely benefit with an extra ground loop (5th loop on a 4 ton).
at our electric rates of .075KWH it would save $25/yr or almost 4%. Around here that woud make the pay back on $1,500 (less 30% tax credit) only 42 years!
......I'm a grumpy old contractor that thinks some put too much stock in "a little extra loop" (can you tell) so take it for what it's worth, but savings% comes from design software.
If you were to provide manual J load calcs and your closest major city as well as average price per KWH (total electric bill divided by consumption) we could reasonably accurately predict your results.
Good Luck,
Joe

I am a grumpy old driller and believe that the two trades and the homeowners money all need to be well thought out and designed for maximum impact to savings, not the homeowners wallet.

Posted By ajspan on 28 Jul 2010 09:20 PM
Another question has arisen. What do we do for the water heater? We have a gas 75 gallon right now that is 19 yrs old. We were planning to replace it. One person suggested a new 75 gal gas and a tempering tank. Another said 2, 50 gal electric. Another said whatever I want. The guy that recommended gas said that it is the most efficient, and why switch to electric when we are interested in efficiency.

A non-powered electric tank, used as a buffer, is a good idea. As to the finishing tank...That depends on your utility's rebate programs. Some of the utilities in Eastern Iowa REQUIRE twin electric tanks to qualify for the rebate program. Others don't care. For those customers we recommend a gas fired water heater IF they already have gas to the home.

No matter what type of tank you get, make sure they pipe it as follows in the attachment...

Bergy

Helps if you attach the attachment!!

Bergy

If you have not chosen a contractor I would recommend you ask each one for the manual J and duct work assessment. Geothermal must be sized by analytical method not by" what my 25 years of doing this so I know when I walk thru your house on the way to the basement instinct is". If nobody did this than I would not go forward until it is completed.Water heater selection is a function of location, utility rates and usage. So high usage and I would lean toward a desuperheater and a condensing gas such as AO smith Vertex or what the contractor is familiar. the issue with some geothermal co is they do not come from a plumbing and mechanical background and have little idea about how other systems in the house work with the geo . A good contractor should be able to assess the building, ask lifestyle questions, run sizing and design programs and bring in any subcontractors needed. I would be embarrassed to to tell a customer you need to find someone to repair a hole in their drywall let alone find somebody to install the geo field....Eric

After 3 weeks of waiting on the contractor to get back to us we got a fourth quote. This one included a manual J load calc/ report. I cannot read it, but he recommended a 4 ton Waterfurnace (2 stage) with 4 tons of ground heat exchanger.

Do I need more than one manual J? He basically came up with the same size as the other guys. Now comes the hard part. Deciding which one to go with. Not sure how to do that. I sort of feel like the one that did the manual J load calc gets extra points, but he did take 3 wks to get the quote to us.

The 3 non florida heat pump guys seemed to be down on FHP. I think it has to do with the fact that they cannot get parts for them, but is there something else I am missing?

I stopped at 5. LoL! One was incorrect. The rest specified similar equipment.

I would talk to the contenders and ask for background info, what are they installing for water heaters, what about yard restoration, what do they sub out and to whom. The longer you talk to somebody the better sense you will have of their character and proficiency. References are good also. I'm Climatemaster dealer myself because we already had a working relationship with the wholesaler and they've been great to work with. I've also installed a lot of FHP units on a couple of hotel jobs and they were pretty much trouble free. It comes down to the installer and the quality of installation and service... go look at a job they did....Eric

Do you need to rule someone out simply for not providing or performing a heat loss calc? No.
Would I favor them yes, but as you balance +'s and -'s, that doesn't put others out of the running.
If taking 3 weeks to get you a quote was without a phonecall or 2 weeks later than promised, it's a definate negative. If you were however told they were really busy and couldn't get back with you for a few weeks, then it doesn't have to be.
I'm not a fan of the extra ton of loops or the justification offered. Nor am I interested in the 5 ton.
Did the Man J calc report offer heating and cooling btu's required?
j

The Man J is not something simple to read for the uninitiated. The last page has some info that I think gets at what is being asked.

Heating summary
Structure 45796 Btuh
Ducts 3664 Btuh h
Central vent( 0 cfm) 0 Btuh h
Humidification 0 Btuh
Piping 0 Btuh
Equipment load 49460 Btuh

Heating equipment summary
Efficiency 80 AFUE
Heating input 0 Btuh
Heating output 0 Btuh
Temperature rise 0 °F
Actual air flow 1015 cfm
Air flow factor 0.021 cfm/Btuh
Static pressure 0 in H2O

Is that the info that is needed?

Would you happen to have the cooling load summary.I would not go over 4 ton as you would be at app 90% of seasonal load depending on were your located...Eric

One person told me that the sizing is supposed to be based on heating not cooling load... Anyway, the guy that said a 4 ton unit with a 5 ton loop ended up doing a manual J and said he stands by his suggestion. He said, "I still recommend a 5 ton loop for your home to provide higher loop temperatures and more btuh output."

His calculation building load section said:
Total Heating Required Including Ventilation Air: 48,905 Btuh 48.905 MBH
Total Sensible Gain: 19,759 Btuh 84 %
Total Latent Gain: 3,751 Btuh 16 %
Total Cooling Required Including Ventilation Air: 23,510 Btuh 1.96 Tons (Based On Sensible + Latent) 2.20 Tons (Based On 75% Sensible Capacity)

Again, I am not sure how to read OR interpret these numbers, so I am really not sure where the tonnage comes from, but I think that the calculations look similar so I am not sure why the recommendations are different.
Someone help please!

Where are you located as you have a low latent load. It would also help in size recommendation as seasonal usage has as much to do with sizing geo as design temp load does. Remember you only see design conditions for a very short time during the year.
Also how important is humidity control during cooling season?.........Eric

Definitely no more than 4T

Given those loads, I'd want a projected cost of operation for a 3T 2 stage. The extra heating cost might be surprisingly low, and installed cost may be thousands less.

Curt, Can you provide justification for 3T? I assumed that the manual J would be something with standard interpretation, and now I am getting the impression that they are a bit more subjective. I would be happy to have a less expensive job, but I really want to avoid an undersized unit. Everyone suggested a 4 ton unit. The difference is one of the guys said we should have 5 tons of loop.

Eric, we live in central Pennsylvania, so we do get all four seasons. It is not incredibly humid, but we have our days.