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DX Systems
Last Post 17 Apr 2012 01:45 PM by gtjp. 49 Replies. |
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2157
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| 13 Feb 2012 09:22 PM |
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Which Companies Make good DX Systems? Which should I try? |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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DJV
New Member
Posts:80
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| 13 Feb 2012 09:37 PM |
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I looked into Earthlinked initially |
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2157
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| 13 Feb 2012 09:44 PM |
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Have you also looked at Earth-to-Air (ETA)? What is your opinion about the DX companies and their systems? |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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DJV
New Member
Posts:80
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| 13 Feb 2012 09:51 PM |
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I looked at several and none really covered my area - ( NJ ) I called Earthlinked and got alot of help from the service side of them to try and get me in contact with a local installer.
It was not in the cards as most were still too far away and wanted way more then I expected to do the system ( 84k for a 5 ton system )
My opinion was good for them - my findings seems to indicate the return was available there, the only issues I saw were possible drying of the bores, and acidic soils but both had work-arounds - unsure about the long term aspects of it since I stopped after having no local installers.
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2157
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| 13 Feb 2012 10:03 PM |
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ETA is located in Franklin, TN but I do not see a dealer list.
Earthlinked has two dealers in Alabama but I would have to do extensive due diligence as usual with any new service or product. |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 14 Feb 2012 08:47 AM |
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Trained in 2 systems, we offer none at this time.
The largest dealer of the most popular brand in MI dropped the product. His distributor picked up a water source system.
I am not suggesting they do not have successful installations, but IMHO you are better off with WF or at least water source at this time.
Among the complaints I have with the industry as a whole are the following.
1) Expensive. Both products we looked at claimed to be cheaper than water source, yet I could get a WTA heat pump and loops installed (by sub contractor) for about $500 more (didn't see ho I could excavate and install loops for less than $500).
2) Disingenuous efficiency claims (though all manufacturers of are guilty of it), we all have spoken here about the soil being the limiting feature for heat transfer DX slows to same as everybody else very quickly. As a matter of fact they tend to load heavier to allow time for ground thaw. At the end of thde day, average efficiency is similar.
3) Industry has done little to become recognized by the International Code Council or other governing codes. Currently by IRC all geo pipe is to be hydrostatically tested and DX systems would be required to have an expensive refrigerant detector in mechanical room.
4) DX manufacturers likely require a greater attention to installation, but seem to attract and unleash less experienced contractors.
They have grown in market share and have had years of oppurtunities to improve image and failed in my opinion. The technology is viable, perhaps the business model is the problem.
j |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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docjenser
Veteran Member
Posts:1400
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| 14 Feb 2012 09:51 AM |
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Having dealt with 3 home owners who had their DX system installed by different installers and had compressor failures (1 developed a leak). I saw a lack of competence at the installers' level, I am also concerned about the efficiency claims. The official numbers do not indicate a higher efficiency, but I am not sure if we are comparing apples and oranges, like direct comparison between water-water and water-air COP. While in theory a simpler and more efficient system, the conductivity of the ground has trouble keeping up. The area for heat exchange is simply smaller. Thus after the initial run in period, where the efficiency looks great, one simply needs a much higher delta T to further extract the same amount of BTUs out of the smaller loops, which decreases the efficiency and puts more stress on the compressor. |
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| www.buffalogeothermalheating.com |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 14 Feb 2012 06:46 PM |
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Ah yes thanks Doc. Installation options are fewer with pitch having to be maintained for oil recovery (while WTA can follow grade) and field sizes can not be increased for poor soil conductivity.
Actual excavation can tear up more of the lawn as well.....with horizontals some DX asks for a 1 pipe trench/ton of 4' wide while my slinkies are 110 X 3' so while they boast smaller foot print and higher extraction with 250' vs 600-800' /ton it misleads someone into expecting a higher efficiency of the system and less lawn repair. |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 14 Feb 2012 06:46 PM |
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Duplicate |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 15 Feb 2012 07:40 AM |
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I agree with all posted by DJ and Joe. I have yet to hear of a compelling reason to embrace the technology, and there are challenges unique to it. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 16 Feb 2012 10:40 PM |
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A footnote would be to consider balance sheets and track records of DX manufacturers, few are over 10 years old, under the same name and license holder.
I have never seen an unsolvable water source heat pump problem, though they can be expensive. I am familiar with DX (3 different manufacturers) systems where kitchen sink was thrown at problems to no avail.
I am also not a fan of dealer/distributor business models.
No axe to grind with the technology, but in spite of what everyone thinks, we don't make enough per install to do it twice if the system fails, so there is little to inspire me to stick my kneck out. Geo system problems (wta or dx) can bring a small company down with only 2 or 3 scrapped installs |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2157
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| 16 Feb 2012 11:08 PM |
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Thanks to all for their comments. I agree, the jury is still out on DX. Only time will tell whether the technology will be accepted. In a separate thread I will ask for comments on a new HVAC technology. |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 16 Feb 2012 11:54 PM |
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The unfortunate problem with "time telling" is they are 25 years into this without definative results. |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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Paul Auerbach
New Member
Posts:88
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| 22 Feb 2012 06:12 AM |
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For some, the "jury" may still be out on the Direct Exchange (DX) Technology. Not for us. I have no intention of fighting the DX vs. water loop war and offer the following:
We've successfully installed over 130 geothermal systems in our trading area (NY, NJ, CT and PA); about 115 DX and 15 deep well water loop systems. For us, we're comfortable with the DX technology offered by Earthlink and Advanced Geo. Both are small companies that we've found responsive to our needs as designer/installer. We have the design expertise and drilling resources to install the DX loop system. In New Jersey we're restricted from installing DX and we've put in Water Furnace, Econar and Climatemaster systems. They work equally well.
This business is all about the installer. Installed correctly, both technologies deliver on the geothermal promise; comfort, savings, peace of mind and not burning fossil fuel on-site for heating and hot water. Yes I know that burning coal to produce the electricity is bad and negates some of the benefits, but factor in lower geothermal peak demand in summer for cooling. And, with heating oil at over $4 a gallon in our area, people are seeking retrofits and in new construction it makes no sense to install an oil or propane system. We understand how to put in DX and make it work. Our earliest DX systems were installed in '07 and are still purring along happily. We've made very few service calls for our DX systems. I have DX in my own home (1908 Queen Ann Colonial - foamed attic and basement) and have tracked performance for the past four years. Instead of 1800 gallons of oil to drive my steam system, I spend about $2,200 in electricity to drive my systems which includes hot water and air conditioning. I personally save over $5,000 a year.
Because DX eliminates one heat transfer and copper is a better heat conductor, it should be more efficient. BUT, since there are various other factors affecting system performance, I'm not prepared to make that argument.
The end result is simple. Install the geothermal infrastructure correctly - whatever the technology, marry it to a well designed heating distribution system and everyone is happy. |
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2157
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| 22 Feb 2012 08:21 AM |
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Paul,
Thanks for posting your comments. Now we need to find an experienced DX installer for Alabama. |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 22 Feb 2012 08:49 AM |
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Posted By Alton on 22 Feb 2012 08:21 AM
Paul,
Thanks for posting your comments. Now we need to find an experienced DX installer for Alabama. It is easier to find an experienced and talented water source installer. Besides Paul the 2 other DX proponents that have contributed here are distributors. Have your customers had a problem with WF or are you reacting to poor service in SWOhio (or elsewhere)? |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2157
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| 22 Feb 2012 10:38 AM |
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I have been a big believer in geothermal since the 1970's when I started specifying open loop systems. My clients have used various brands of open and closed loop systems. Most of my clients have been very happy with their units. To my knowledge, I have had only one client that was not completely satisified with his closed-loop geothermal system. Some of my other clients have closed-loop geothermal systems that required several trips to get the unit running correctly. Although they are satisified now, they still tell their friends what they went through to get satisfaction. The biggest problem is that more and more potential users are hearing about geothermal problems that take forever to get fixed. This has been enough for some clients to turn away from all geothermal. Some people do not want to pay that much for a system that has problems - regardless of whether the problems are caused by the unit or installation.
In the last few years, clients have been asking me to find the most efficient and reliable systems available. That is why I use this forum, trade shows, etc. to ask about the latest HVAC technology. Since I do not have any financial interest in any product or service, I am free to specify the latest and best. The problem is that no one seems to know which brand or type of system is best.
I would be much more confident in specifying brand and type of system if an organization like Consumer Reports rated units and installation. As an individual, I have no way to know what is the most efficient and reliable.
As a general rule, I try not to use this forum to knock any product. I do not fault anyone who does if this results from experience. Although I may ask for assistance on this forum, I try not to reflect too badly on any brand name. I would rather to see a problem corrected than to take pleasure in bad mouthing it.
Although I understand that HVAC maufacturers are not contractors and have to rely upon installers, I just wish there was a way to resolve problems more quickly. |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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Paul Auerbach
New Member
Posts:88
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| 22 Feb 2012 11:51 AM |
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Joe,
The Water Furnace and Climate Master systems perform very well and we've had no problems. The Econar systems are a bit problematic, but nothing out of the ordinary.
DX, despite being around for more than 20 years controls only about 3% of the market. DX installers are harder to find. But like any geo professionals there are good and bad ones. We don't denigrate any technology...it's all geo. Use the best, most experienced installer you can find. The technology will be secondary.
Paul
www.TotalGreenUS.com
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docjenser
Veteran Member
Posts:1400
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| 22 Feb 2012 06:04 PM |
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Paul,
since you have that many installs, and you say you track your own performance and you have installed both DX and water sourced systems, can you actually post some performance data (not just claims)?
I continue to have trouble to understand how you can extract the same amount of heat out of half the ground without running the ground temp much lower, which then kills efficiency. If the ground is that much colder, it does not matter that copper is a much better conductor, the ground is too cold. Given your expertise and volume, it should be easy for you to monitor performance and post it on a public webpage, in a similar fashion we do this with our water source systems. That way you would make all the the DX claims transparent and support it with actual data. |
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| www.buffalogeothermalheating.com |
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docjenser
Veteran Member
Posts:1400
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| 22 Feb 2012 11:53 PM |
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Paul, I visited your webpage (www.TotalGreenUS.com) and you are making some pretty steep claims here. Among them:
"What sets Total Green ‘DX’ Systems apart is only one heat exchange transfer is required, compared to the two step transfer in water-based systems demanding about twice as much energy consumption, as well as a circulating pump and expensive deep well drilling. "
Doesn't the overall efficiency matter?
"Copper Tubing – a superior heat conductor, proven more reliable and efficient than plastic used in water based systems. "
Really, more reliable than high density polyethylene?
"Ultra efficient Direct Expansion (DX) Technology - is at least 30% more efficient than other geothermal heating systems - achieving 4.5-5.0 COP heating and up to 33 SEER cooling in real world applications. "
When I look up the COP and EER for the Earthlinked System it is reported to be 3.5 (COP) and 16 EER. How do you come up with the above numbers. SEER (seasonal) rating for geothermal heatpumps?
"Total Green ‘DX’ Geothermal Technology is the most advanced in the market, backed by years of research, design and real-world installations."
What makes it the most advanced on the market, and again, could you elaborate on the years of research. Some data would help here.
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| www.buffalogeothermalheating.com |
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DickRussell
Basic Member
Posts:182
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| 23 Feb 2012 11:51 AM |
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There is a thread on this subject running on another forum. Someone there posted a link to this GBT thread. I posted some comments on that other thread, so I'll just provide a link to that. Mine are #21 and #27.
http://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/83121/P15/ |
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Paul Auerbach
New Member
Posts:88
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| 23 Feb 2012 04:43 PM |
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Posted By docjenser on 22 Feb 2012 11:53 PM
Paul, I visited your webpage (www.TotalGreenUS.com) and you are making some pretty steep claims here. Among them:
"What sets Total Green ‘DX’ Systems apart is only one heat exchange transfer is required, compared to the two step transfer in water-based systems demanding about twice as much energy consumption, as well as a circulating pump and expensive deep well drilling. "
Doesn't the overall efficiency matter?
"Copper Tubing – a superior heat conductor, proven more reliable and efficient than plastic used in water based systems. "
Really, more reliable than high density polyethylene?
"Ultra efficient Direct Expansion (DX) Technology - is at least 30% more efficient than other geothermal heating systems - achieving 4.5-5.0 COP heating and up to 33 SEER cooling in real world applications. "
When I look up the COP and EER for the Earthlinked System it is reported to be 3.5 (COP) and 16 EER. How do you come up with the above numbers. SEER (seasonal) rating for geothermal heatpumps?
"Total Green ‘DX’ Geothermal Technology is the most advanced in the market, backed by years of research, design and real-world installations."
What makes it the most advanced on the market, and again, could you elaborate on the years of research. Some data would help here.
Doc, as you know DX does have one heat transfer which is more efficient than the two required transferring to the glycol loop and then the refrigerant loop. As far as overall efficiency, circulating glycol uses energy. This is not required in a DX system. All the work is done by the compressor. This brings up an interesting point. The newest water based heat pumps (not yet in the market I'm told) use very efficient staged compressors. This may negate the potential advantage DX enjoys over water loops. Copper piping has been around for hundreds of years - most municipal water systems use copper in the ground from the street main to the home. Did we take liberties comparing copper to HDPE - yes. That will be changed when our new website comes up in about two months. We will publish results of a few of our best operating systems - which show this kind of performance. Feel free to call Earthlinked. They routinely talk about some systems delivering 4.5 COP and up to 33 EER. So does Advanced Geo. Check out the May 2010 AHRI directory (email me if you can't find a copy and I'll email one to you). Advanced Geo and Earth to Air systems publish 4.2 COP. Plus, the 870 test protocol uses a tank with a finite amount of water which skews performance as heat is removed from the water. That said, we are working toward providing real world performance figures for systems in the ground. WelServer is starting to do that. "Years of research" refers to the manufacturers - Earthlinked Technologies in business since 1989 and has been continually improving their product (holding 6 patents). The same holds true for ECR Industries (dba Advanced Geothermal Technologies). Also in business since the early 1990's. Between both companies they have provided equipment for more than 15,000 installs. Copper piping certainly conducts heat better than HDPE, but all GSHP's are limited by ground heat conductivity. Does that mean given the same ground conditions HDPE and copper will pass the same amount of heat? That's some data I would like to see. |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 23 Feb 2012 09:42 PM |
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There's little difference in performance between conventional vs DX geo systems when both are installed correctly. Performance just shouldn't be considered as a deciding factor if choosing.
Conventional geo systems can easily run 4.8 - 5.0 COP - even my conventional off-the-shelf geo current technology WaterFurnace Envision 5 and 3 ton 2-stage variable speed units do this routinely - and I have a WEL system carefully implemented to be sure to get the measurements exactly correct.
There just isn't advantage to DX based on COP or EER - again when each is installed properly.
'Installed properly' includes for conventional geo that vertical boreholes are properly grouted and length of pipe is sufficient such that the heat transfer at the HDPE pipe surface can match the speed heat can move within the earth. While DX' heat transfer at the copper pipe's surface is far superior to what conventional geo can accomplish, I question how much it's a 'plus' for DX when heat can only move so fast within the earth.
But, while I think we could argue on the merits of performance either way (DX vs conventional), continuously byt the way, I don't think it makes any difference.
I think the real benefit of DX is increased scenarios where DX can be installed and conventional geo cannot.
No longer do you need to have a residential lot big enough to put on it a borehole drilling machine, or to string over a mile of pipe in a horizontal manner. With DX you can drill the copper radiating pipes through the basement slab, through the driveway, in the front yard, etc., with a drilling rig that much easier fits on the property. Now your market for geothermal installation extends into urban areas where residential lots are much smaller.
In summary, given enough lot space, and again assuming installed properly, there just isn't a performance difference between the two technologies. Give me a big rural sprawling lot, with lots of acreage, the conventional geo system's going to perform just as well as DX (again each properly installed).
But give me an 8000 SF lot with a 2500 SF home on it, the odds are excellent only a DX system can be installed and a conventional geo system cannot. And it will perform just as well as the conventional geo technology. Amongst the many obstacles facing the borehole digger in this scenario, imagine a big drilling machine to dig vertical boreholes having a prayer just making it down the alley to this home, let alone have any room to maneuver (through the fence) to get into position.
If my focus of business included high urban density areas, I'd become an expert at DX, and would routinely go get the geo business that the conventional geo companies just can't do.
Best regards,
Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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robinnc
Advanced Member
Posts:586
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| 23 Feb 2012 10:17 PM |
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Paul and a012, what would be the approx cost to install a 4 ton system with DX with desup? From my earlier thread on geo costs, it ended up being in the $20-22 grand range for horizontal loops before tax adv.
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docjenser
Veteran Member
Posts:1400
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| 24 Feb 2012 02:33 AM |
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Posted By Paul Auerbach on 23 Feb 2012 04:43 PM
Posted By docjenser on 22 Feb 2012 11:53 PM
Paul, I visited your webpage (www.TotalGreenUS.com) and you are making some pretty steep claims here. Among them:
"What sets Total Green ‘DX’ Systems apart is only one heat exchange transfer is required, compared to the two step transfer in water-based systems demanding about twice as much energy consumption, as well as a circulating pump and expensive deep well drilling. "
Doesn't the overall efficiency matter?
"Copper Tubing – a superior heat conductor, proven more reliable and efficient than plastic used in water based systems. "
Really, more reliable than high density polyethylene?
"Ultra efficient Direct Expansion (DX) Technology - is at least 30% more efficient than other geothermal heating systems - achieving 4.5-5.0 COP heating and up to 33 SEER cooling in real world applications. "
When I look up the COP and EER for the Earthlinked System it is reported to be 3.5 (COP) and 16 EER. How do you come up with the above numbers. SEER (seasonal) rating for geothermal heatpumps?
"Total Green ‘DX’ Geothermal Technology is the most advanced in the market, backed by years of research, design and real-world installations."
What makes it the most advanced on the market, and again, could you elaborate on the years of research. Some data would help here.
Doc, as you know DX does have one heat transfer which is more efficient than the two required transferring to the glycol loop and then the refrigerant loop. As far as overall efficiency, circulating glycol uses energy. This is not required in a DX system. All the work is done by the compressor. This brings up an interesting point. The newest water based heat pumps (not yet in the market I'm told) use very efficient staged compressors. This may negate the potential advantage DX enjoys over water loops.
Copper piping has been around for hundreds of years - most municipal water systems use copper in the ground from the street main to the home. Did we take liberties comparing copper to HDPE - yes. That will be changed when our new website comes up in about two months.
We will publish results of a few of our best operating systems - which show this kind of performance. Feel free to call Earthlinked. They routinely talk about some systems delivering 4.5 COP and up to 33 EER. So does Advanced Geo. Check out the May 2010 AHRI directory (email me if you can't find a copy and I'll email one to you). Advanced Geo and Earth to Air systems publish 4.2 COP. Plus, the 870 test protocol uses a tank with a finite amount of water which skews performance as heat is removed from the water.
That said, we are working toward providing real world performance figures for systems in the ground. WelServer is starting to do that.
"Years of research" refers to the manufacturers - Earthlinked Technologies in business since 1989 and has been continually improving their product (holding 6 patents). The same holds true for ECR Industries (dba Advanced Geothermal Technologies). Also in business since the early 1990's. Between both companies they have provided equipment for more than 15,000 installs.
Copper piping certainly conducts heat better than HDPE, but all GSHP's are limited by ground heat conductivity. Does that mean given the same ground conditions HDPE and copper will pass the same amount of heat? That's some data I would like to see.
No question DX is a simpler system, no question copper is a better heat conductor than HDPE,
I found the claims pretty steep. No, I am not calling earthlink, I was on their website. No data their which support their claims. I then did a search, and could not find any studies or data supporting the higher efficiency claims. I realize the manufacturers, as you say, routinely talk about high efficiency numbers, but they also routinely fail to provide any evidence and data supporting any of those claims. And Paul, no offense, but so did you here so far. Why don't you publish the data first you claim to have, and then make the claim of 30% higher efficiency.
I checked out the AHRI directory, and you are correct, other than Earthlinked post up to 4.2 COP. I only had checked Earthlinked. But that kind of efficiency is also reached by W-W systems under the relatively bad conditions (32F EWT).
Years of research does not relate to years in business, nor does it relate to any patents. Nor do patents mean that you have any evidence for your efficiency claims.
It does not matter that copper has a better conductivity, nor does it matter that "...given the same ground conditions..." copper will transfer more heat than HDPE. That is why the HDPE water systems are much larger, so the ground can catch up and does not become the needle ear. Look,
I agree that in theory the direct exchange technology is simpler and intriguing. It caught my interest and I started digging, but did not find anything which could sustain those claims, nor did I find anything to explain on how you can extract the same amount of energy from a much smaller mass of soil without reducing efficiency significantly.
So please, be the guardian of reality here. Support your claims with data. At the end, theory guides, but experiment decides. |
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| www.buffalogeothermalheating.com |
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tinoue
New Member
Posts:96
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| 24 Feb 2012 09:49 AM |
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As a user of an Earthlinked DX system I can attest to both sides of this argument. I'm probably the only person who has temperature sensors attached to the ground loops as well as in a nearby bore to measure the near-field affects over the season. I've had the unit about 7 years now.
From the theoretical standpoint, the DX system must be more efficient because there's no water circulation pump. It take a fair amount of energy to pump the GPM of water/glycol through the ground loop. Those of you who have monitored that should post your numbers. I've heard you quote 250w-500w as typical circulator pump energy requirements. That's about 10% of the compressor.
On the DX side, it requires forcing the refrigerant through the ground loops, so that should require more energy than the circulation through the heat exchanger of a conventional water source heat pump. I have years of WEL data from the compressor showing my 4-ton DX system uses between 2600 and 3000 watts at steady state.
As has been pointed out by the water source guys, there's a question of the heat capacity of the ground given the much smaller ground bores. My system has 100 feet per ton, which based on my research, calculations and measurements is grossly inadequate. During the first year of operation, I evaluated the bore hole temperatures by monitoring the system from the time it was turned off after a long run. This quantified the ground temperature recovery rate. What it showed was that the DX system very efficiently sucked the heat out of the ground much faster than the thermal conductivity of the ground (in my case, solid diabase rock) could recover under anything but low duty cycles.
In addition, I should note that my system was installed incorrectly. Even though I specified 6 loops (150'/ton) spaced a minimum of 10' apart, the installers drilling small rig was unable to deal with the diabase rock and he ended up installing 4 loops spaced only 6' apart. Based on all models, this was inadequate and long term measurements proved this to be the case. Note: I will not discuss the legal and other complications involved with this install. That's been hashed out elsewhere. The end result is that I have multiple active heating systems in use throughout the season.
Note too that the installer came recommended by Earthlinked as the best in the area (at the time) so it's not like this was a "low bidder" situation.
I try to stay as objective as possible in these analysis. Based on the models, the theory and the practical application, I cannot see how it is possible under anything but the most favorable conditions (high water table, porous ground or very low duty cycles) for 100'/ton to provide satisfactory performance. This is true regardless of the tech - DX or water source. Even 150'/ton is usually considered inadequate for high, long term performance. The fundamental physics involved indicates that DX installers should not be promoting the less expensive 100'/ton systems unless long term modeling and ground measurements indicate that this is adequate and certify certain performance criteria. This will almost never happen in residential installations, therefore I strongly discourage people from going this route.
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 24 Feb 2012 09:54 AM |
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Bill,
There are actually almost no scenarios where DX can be installed and water source can't. There are many more situations where DX can't be installed but water source can.
A drill is a drill and DX may require less depth but it has more bore holes.....in fact this is one of the short comings of DX; there is little flexibility in loop design. You'll notice lots of different configurations of water loops (vertical or horizontal), DX offers few choices as the requirements for refrigerant distance from compressor are fixed in granite.
Superior efficiency as you note is only in the first few minutes after which soil determines performance......unless we have extremely dry soil and horizontal loops at which point the versatility of water source (that allows additional loop in the ground) wins the day.
Let's talk about those nifty copper loops, some fields cost as much as a heat pump. I don't have my price book around, but suffice it to say you can by 10 times the HDPE on the same budget. You might have to buy a flow center, but you save 30# of refrigerant.
Who sells DX? No offense to Paul but I notice he's been installing them since 2007... Lot's of guys jumped in geo in 2007 and 2008. The one's most attracted to DX were guys with little geo experience who also didn't want to purchase a bunch of new tools. Only those ignorant to geo are convinced that DX is cheaper or easier to install.
Those second most attracted to DX are the marketing oriented firms that stood a chance at distributorship or at least saw an oppurtunity to set themselves apart from the other bidders (if you don't want to beat them on price with their product, change the product). This is a legitimate marketing strategy. This explains my interest in the technology (and Paul's if I'm not mistaken).
On top of everything else, DXers can not design as tightly as water source as they try to design in down time for ground thaw, meaning you will often buy more tonnage in a DX. Then you have hundreds of feet of loop field that have been exposed to many oppurtunities for mishap and contamination, so without a terrific amount of attention by the installer, the package water source geo has a way better shot at longevity (think of the lifespan of a refrigerator or a window airconditioner vs a central air conditioner).
So in sum, DX is less versatile, more expensive, equal in efficiency and more attractive to new dealers (suggesting less experienced installers). It is also more complicated to install correctly, requiring more equipment (to haul different backfill to the site for instance), time and skill.
Someone purchasing geo will have a way harder time finding a good DX installer and they will likely pay more for the system. These are the facts, not criticisms.
FWIW I don't know of a DX installer in my AO right now (that includes the "dealer of the year" for the "distributor of the year" ~2009 of one of the companies mentioned).
Rob,
2 things:
1) After all of our conversations about cost and how it varies place to place, you've arrived at a number that may be close in my AO but not necessarily Pauls or along the East coast. Prices vary based on many contributors. Attempts to "nutshell" pricing become exasperating.
2) Without getting in to specifics, I can tell you that a 4 ton DX package costs me $500 less than a watersource geo with the loopfield installed by my loop contractor. By the time I install the loops, purchase, haul and backfill with crusher dust my DX installation costs me significant extra time and no less than $1,000 more......it's manufacturers/distributors insist that DX is cheaper.
Doc,
watersource manufacturers are guilty of embellishing performance numbers as well. I'm not going to fault an advertiser for citing peak efficienies (while ignoring similarity in averages). Nor do I fault an advertiser hyping a weakness (i.e. fixed loop length) as a strength (....."hey we have a smaller footprint!"....).
What I can't get past is the feeling I get ("snakeoil" salesman) everytime I read the ads. Tuffluck driller and maybe Paul are the only guys in the DX biz that didn't give me that feeling......
.....and PLEASE DX manufacturers, if you are going to dispell the snake oil feel get your product recognized by the International Code Council. Why should a product be taken seriously when it is absent from the codebooks?
Alton,
"The problem is that no one seems to know which brand or type of system is best."
Not so, it is turning mantra for a reason but; the best brand is what the areas best contractor/ installer sells.
You don't hear about lengthy fix times with my customers, nor do they blog complaints here, because I handle their problems.
New technology in furnaces air conditioners as well as geo heat pumps are creating more service problems in general that the average "part-changer" will not easily diagnose. Perhaps you need to suggest to your customers the technology you think best "if" a competant installer is in the area. For instance, I would not suggest mini splits at all without experienced installers. |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 24 Feb 2012 12:21 PM |
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For those that want to learn more detail on the technical side of how DX systems work, there are at least 4 WEL monitored systems to look at. They all have varying amounts of diagram detail and charts and graphs: http://www.welserver.com/WEL0193 ? ton Earthlinked installation Homeland, FL http://www.welserver.com/WEL0201 Three installations: 5 ton Earthlinked, 5 ton WaterFurnace, 5 ton Carrier This is Terraclime Geothermal's WEL presence; they are an Earthlinked and Carrier dealer Northampton, MA http://www.welserver.com/WEL0356 2007 built Net Zero home. 2 ton Earthlinked installation Grapevine, TX http://www.welserver.com/WEL0508 4 ton Earthlinked installation Wilmore, KY There may be more WEL monitored DX systems - the above 4 were the ones I could quickly find. Best regards, Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 24 Feb 2012 12:34 PM |
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Posted By joe.ami on 24 Feb 2012 09:54 AM
... There are actually almost no scenarios where DX can be installed and water source can't. Joe, are you sure? I'm located in a 1/4 million population suburb of a 2 million or so Dallas area. There are plenty of 7000 and 8000 sf lots with reasonable sized 2000 - 2500 sf homes on them (even larger sf with 2 stories) that there's no way a well drilling machine could maneuver to to drill the borehole field. Horizontal's out because there's no room. Vertical's out because you don't have enough room for either/both the drilling rig or properly spaced borehole field holes. Looks to me these are DX only opportunities - vertical needing less area than a conventional borehole field - especially for those structures that have a cooling heat rejection need of under 3 tons (Dallas area comment, where cooling is the challenge and heating is the afterthought.) Best regards, Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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waterpirate
Basic Member
Posts:467
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| 25 Feb 2012 06:59 AM |
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Posted By a0128958 on 24 Feb 2012 12:34 PM
Posted By joe.ami on 24 Feb 2012 09:54 AM
... There are actually almost no scenarios where DX can be installed and water source can't. Joe, are you sure?
I'm located in a 1/4 million population suburb of a 2 million or so Dallas area. There are plenty of 7000 and 8000 sf lots with reasonable sized 2000 - 2500 sf homes on them (even larger sf with 2 stories) that there's no way a well drilling machine could maneuver to to drill the borehole field.
Horizontal's out because there's no room. Vertical's out because you don't have enough room for either/both the drilling rig or properly spaced borehole field holes.
Looks to me these are DX only opportunities - vertical needing less area than a conventional borehole field - especially for those structures that have a cooling heat rejection need of under 3 tons (Dallas area comment, where cooling is the challenge and heating is the afterthought.)
Best regards,
Bill
I read most of this with an open mind, but the above is just not true. From a drilling perspective Joe is correct. A hole is a hole. If you can get a machine on the lot to drill a hole, how deep you drill and what you put in the hole are a choice, not a rule. I have drilled many jobs that others declined due to the flexibility of our companies assests. Five drill rigs to choose from, all very different in size and application. We offer the flexibility of design also. We have often drilled fewer bores deeper and larger pipe size where others could not. That is the flexibility of hdpe. My knowledge of refrigerant and the laws concerning moving it is very limited so I will stop there. I will add that we also construct loop fields in remote locations from the building they serve and only have to upsize the circ pump. Eric |
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| Eric Sackett<br>www.weberwelldrilling.com<br >Visit our Geothermal Resource Center! |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 25 Feb 2012 09:40 AM |
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Eric, thank you for the info and update.
Best regards,
Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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docjenser
Veteran Member
Posts:1400
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| 26 Feb 2012 10:30 PM |
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Posted By a0128958 on 24 Feb 2012 12:21 PM
For those that want to learn more detail on the technical side of how DX systems work, there are at least 4 WEL monitored systems to look at. They all have varying amounts of diagram detail and charts and graphs:
http://www.welserver.com/WEL0193
? ton Earthlinked installation
Homeland, FL
http://www.welserver.com/WEL0201
Three installations: 5 ton Earthlinked, 5 ton WaterFurnace, 5 ton Carrier
This is Terraclime Geothermal's WEL presence; they are an Earthlinked and Carrier dealer
Northampton, MA
http://www.welserver.com/WEL0356
2007 built Net Zero home.
2 ton Earthlinked installation
Grapevine, TX
http://www.welserver.com/WEL0508
4 ton Earthlinked installation
Wilmore, KY
There may be more WEL monitored DX systems - the above 4 were the ones I could quickly find.
Best regards,
Bill
Bill,
unfortunately none of the monitoring is set up to monitor the performance from an efficiency point of view.
I yet have to find data to support the higher efficiency claims many make. Please point me to it.
Thanks |
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| www.buffalogeothermalheating.com |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 27 Feb 2012 06:25 AM |
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Bill,
Yes I'm sure. It is not what DX marketing would have you believe, but a hole is a hole and DX needs more of them so installation may be less versatile than water source. Just like the "smaller footprint" of their horizontal loops. Each ton needs a 4' wide by 125' long trench where my slinkies fit in a 3' wide by 110' trench (though the slinkies have more than twice the pipe making the loopfield "bigger"). This is the "snakeoil" vibe I mentioned.
Doc,
Don't forget DXers load heavy, so they may see a quarter COP advantage over rightsized system- thousands more to install- $50/yr savings.
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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docjenser
Veteran Member
Posts:1400
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| 27 Feb 2012 07:16 PM |
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Posted By joe.ami on 27 Feb 2012 06:25 AM
Bill,
Yes I'm sure. It is not what DX marketing would have you believe, but a hole is a hole and DX needs more of them so installation may be less versatile than water source. Just like the "smaller footprint" of their horizontal loops. Each ton needs a 4' wide by 125' long trench where my slinkies fit in a 3' wide by 110' trench (though the slinkies have more than twice the pipe making the loopfield "bigger"). This is the "snakeoil" vibe I mentioned.
Doc,
Don't forget DXers load heavy, so they may see a quarter COP advantage over rightsized system- thousands more to install- $50/yr savings.
http://welserver.com/WEL0336/
I don't get the "need less space for drilling" argument. Look at the above images with the WELserver, we dilled right beside the driveway, 6 inch hole is all we need. Or through the driveway. Or 3 inches beside the sidewalk, where there were 3-4 ft between the sidewalk and the house. As long as you can back up with the drill rig, even at an angle, it is not a problem. Most houses are more than 20ft wide, so you put two boreholes right in front of the house wall, and you are done. Each hole supports 3-4 tons.
Joe, even if they load heavy, I do not see any support for their efficiency claims. As you know, just because their system is oversized, it does not run more efficient. While in theory a more efficient system since it saves 1 heat exchange, their published COP does not not look impressive, certainly not better than current closed loop W-A heatpumps. Yes, the protocol is slightly different since it requires a holding tank and cools down the water rather quickly, but it does so also in real life.
To Paul:
" Feel free to call Earthlinked. They routinely talk about some systems delivering 4.5 COP and up to 33 EER. So does Advanced Geo. ... Advanced Geo and Earth to Air systems publish 4.2 COP. Copper piping certainly conducts heat better than HDPE, but all GSHP's are limited by ground heat conductivity. Does that mean given the same ground conditions HDPE and copper will pass the same amount of heat? That's some data I would like to see."
I see lot of claims made, so the manufacturer talking about much higher efficiencies than they can proof does not help us here. As you point out, copper is great in conducting heat, much better than HDPE. But that is not the point. You say "given the same ground condition". The entire point is that you do not have the same ground conditions with a DX system versus a water loop system. The DX will pull the same heat out of lesser amount of ground, cooling the ground much further down to the point where it is much colder than with a water loop system, which will reduce the efficiency to a point where I would argue eliminates the benefits of the DX system.
Going through a second heat exchange process probably will cost you 5-7 degrees, which will reduce your efficiency by a maximum of 10%. Lets say another 8% you loose with circulation pumps, but also a DX system has to push refrigerant through the lines, and that energy comes from the compressor. Running the ground beside the refrigerant lines 10-15 degrees lower than a water loop will wipe out the DX benefit. |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 29 Feb 2012 08:56 AM |
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At the end of the day, DX manufacturers greatly exaggerate capabilities and tout "smaller footprint" though we explained there is no advantage and often greater impact to the lawn (don't forget their horizontals have to maintain pitch, so if you have a lawn that's not flat, much more digging will be required). They further continue to fail to take care of business with the Code Council......
Then they cry foul when water source guys "pick on them".
The only dealer advantage to DX is market distinction (selling something few others offer), but it begins to pale if inspectors start enforcing the code (i.e. refrigerant detectors). |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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GTJON
Basic Member
Posts:112
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| 09 Apr 2012 07:34 PM |
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Good Day all:
experience and rough website to be built better soon... 70 sold-installed, since 1980, and 1600+ hands-on
www.geopros.org GT since 1994, replaced grundfos pumps in 26 years usage on a still-running 1982 GT HW, Cooling by Chilled water, and Forced-Air Heating TETCO, 46k compressor (found on rateds-size 4.1/2 "TON" units today... (hah!) using 5-ton heat exchangers, COP 4.11 laboratory...then in 1981-1982... on-line to date...
Any hooz:
more nice talk at
http://www.hearth.com/talk/search/57320/?q=solar+geothermal&o=date&c[node]=11
Please search some GT there too
Still learning: after nearly 1600 hands on + to 1500-ton chillers...
--nice U' nomenclature above , but just see my rough website a bit please...
But you do not have to give up on DX,
like GT generally:
HOW ? WHO? When does all accurately get us in a margin of good ROI and comfort...?
It should and it will with great installers that are really good and fast enough to lower overhead with accuracy to reduce call backs,,, BUT NO ONE can estimate when the next electro-board failure or particular Air-Coil failure may occur in any A/C or Ht Pump, --- we all know.
As we know, we all can grapple with over-sizing a plastic-water ECL (Earth Coupled Loop) if we can not well-water pump/dump/ or what ever.
Once everything is on site, things like 2ft wide ditches, if really wet, can have 3-pipes (add 500-600 bucks, please) working very GT Looped warmly ! and for a 20- to 24,000 btuh compressor (over 2-tons rated's say) 24/7 in 52 deg soil of clay/stone for easily a couple of weeks at 32- to 34 degrees entering and staying (barely) above 27 deg 'Blue-Line'. or in just440- 500 ft horizontal hooked up on a pair of boreholes x 3/4" sdr-11 to a 1" header for a small home size comparrison.
If you can use a very low Press-Drop HX on water ECL (gle) then you will find a single 185 watt pump runs a 5-Ton in a 3600 sq ft home very well on 5-loops of 3/4" in average damp soil designs... keeping loop above 34-deg entering...
and
it wont have ALL the claims of "best" but it has a HUGE R.O.I. in 10 years running , paying for itself ~ 2x's ( ! ).
and change those less-quality electrical compressor contactors on ANY REFG UNIT before 10-years !!!
REFRIGERATION GAUGES TELL MORE
than discussing 3gpm to 4gpm per compressor-ton (cT-on inside of a GT uit) (resulting in Temp diff readings that a few argue too much to a 1/10th deg)
Yes I have pointed out 1/3 deg in a diff reading is 10% OF A 3-DEG DIFFERENCE ON 2) PUMPS ON A COLD 30-DEG LOOP ON A "4-TON RATED" RUNNING CONTINUOUSLY --- in the 90's --- when so many had 1 pump at larger temp differences than the 3-deg required to stay off 27-deg leaving the house...
We measured the 46 btuh extracted then too versus 43 btuh per foot of borehole on a warmer 34- 35 deg loop entering the unit ( also 10% less heat per drilled foot) but the unit put out 88% plus of it's compressor label rating instead of 77% over-10% less on the 10% colder loop, etc....
JUST TELL THE LOOPER TO GUARANTEE A REASONABLE agreed COLD DAY's AMBIENT CONDITION ON THOSE REFRIGERATION GAUGES at say 420-cfm per heating compressor ton (cT)
and Entering Air 68-deg and suction on 410a over 100 psig --- just like I maintain on any open-well a 106+ guarantee, shown the customer, fullfilled.
~YES:
DX worked on 1/3 in 1993-1999 installs in NE Ohio
and --- just replaced one loosing 22 lbs R-22 (now near $400 wholesale per ~25 lbs... today)
FOUND:
All the GSDX and CA info of the 1990's about "frozen dirt around tubing= "no problem" to be a REAL problem...
so
(see heat loss chart on website, please, since 1980, still very accurate, and add for new insulation's, real 80-deg diff and 73-deg or your own)
and READ YOUR HOME loading there or fax over to me surface areas and life-style to see...
and then size loop FOR THE HOME running like a couple of weeks straight at your estimated average worst loading
<< I size just like the $450..."wise guys" charge and give performance guarantees for designs of regular 2-6-ton homes and pools and radiant, @$ much less..>>
I posted results in 2003 of a "27-deg 'Blue-Line' in our soil for gt return line temps"
in 6600- deg days -27 peak below-zeros 1994--- and a lot = -12-deg winters an hour N of the FootBall H.O.F.
Mentioning that:
Then told THE GT 'WORLD' 20% more vertical loop was required here and across the country stated 150 ft vert drilled usually and a few at 175 ft commercially... all came up VERY SHORT...
Then Engineers and home owners called our office to discuss over-freezing home loops -to over-heating in Schools too.
We were at 230 ft per school-cooling ton by 2005 for sure and based that on 1995 data at a 103-degree leaving to loop from Cuyahoga Coiunty Airport then vs the unedr 86 deg loop at an AKRON 50-Equiopment-ton (28-block-cooling-ton) job and ~ 200ft/House-Heat-Load-Avg-ton just as BARD Heating, NW OH (Scott) predicted years ahead of the 'experts' and many 150 vert-ft/ "ton" freezies... some 24-deg leaving like an ice-maker system.
THE DIRT PUSHES AWAY at a consistent 26-27 degrees here...
YOU ARE ALL CORRECT IN AGREEING ONLY SO-MUCH ENERGY PER SPACE OF OCCUPIED WET OR (LESS) DRY EARTH COUPLED LOOP:::
That is the point :
DX if you have no Cu issues in 30-years+ a good reason to... (why not just put in a 50-year loop anyways in plastic?)...
Although Dave Heart TETCO) is gone and his dear wife sold rights of some vertical GT DX systemics to WF of CAN many years ago...
TO-DATE: Many have only seen a far fewer successful Cu DX worth installing for a 30-year longevity in grounds minerals and acids compositions
such that the cities in Ohio are ALL DISTRAUGHT with so many required CU Water line replacements in particular areas of adverse soil composition...
YES DX WORKS
NO IT DOES NOT USE ANY LESS GROUND-AVAILABLE ENERGY as that refrigeration gauge, if sitting at 100 psig on r410a suction, (at the evaporator chiller coil to the ground while heating your home) is in the same spot as with a water-loop ECL gle, GTX, ground coil system of loops...
we have even open-well low water-usage at 1.2 gpm per cT RUNNING CAREFULLY and a circulator across pipes whips water OPEN- through at ~ 6 gpm/ton, feading only that loop at 1.2 GPM/ cT...( ! ) near 34.1/2 deg leaving raw water... as we must: circ is 1/6 hp g-fos bronze across in-outlets on 38k bristol compressor 1982, running...
WE HAVE CORRECTED SO MANY LOOPS BELOW 27-DEG RETURNING TO THE GROUND FROM UNITS, AND SEEN DX SYSTEMS FAIL ENOUGH IN THE 1990'S INSTALLS (now showing up), NOTING THAT PRICES ARE driven LOWER TODAY TO INSTALL HORIZONTAL BORES SUCH THAT A CONTINUOUS 5-TON 24/7 @ 3-WEEKS OPERATING STRAIGHT FULL BORE HIGH SPEED (5-T) GT UNIT ground loop installed from unit to pumps to earth costs customers @ less than 1900/ton installed before credits.
I hope that helps to consider.
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 09 Apr 2012 10:37 PM |
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Wow...am I alone in having difficulty understanding all that? |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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Looby
Basic Member
Posts:401
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| 09 Apr 2012 11:15 PM |
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Posted By engineer on 09 Apr 2012 10:37 PM
Wow...am I alone in having difficulty understanding all that?
Which part of:
"I posted results in 2003 of a "27-deg 'Blue-Line' in our soil for gt
return line temps" in 6600- deg days -27 peak below-zeros 1994---
and a lot = -12-deg winters an hour N of the FootBall H.O.F."
didn't you understand?
Looby |
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| One measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions. |
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robinnc
Advanced Member
Posts:586
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| 09 Apr 2012 11:30 PM |
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My head is spinning......  |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 10 Apr 2012 07:46 AM |
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I think; therefore I am (a toaster). |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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GTJON
Basic Member
Posts:112
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| 12 Apr 2012 05:44 PM |
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Engineer question: What is the question?
joe
nice website; glad to see not much changed in nation wide discussion from that first GT ($300) training-seminar in May 1980, by Dr john Jones of Jones Heating and Cooling, Dayton, Ohio
how much really is save with DX compared to the 9000 KWH 3600 sq ft well insulated home considering all Heating Cooling and Instant on-demand HW and in Cooling full Heat-Recovery to 100% water Heating (loop pumps are off liine then)...?
Where I removed a 50k compresssor-dx, the customer says Hydro-Temp (AR) Priority HW System, 48k compressors are within 5% of the DX he had 16 years, because it only had a desuperheater for his family of 5. In 4 years now. 5 x 500ft Pipes in 4ft ditch and 7ft deep in 52 deg avg soil temp.
We have homes around 11 btuh per sq ft with ducting returns well enough for 1.1/2-deg temp differences off ceiling to floors over 2 stories, and need very little radiant floor heating with properly adjusted registers. For instance 5500 sq ft in 6600 deg days, uses ~ 13,00 KWH, average insulated basement of walk-out half , all fiberglass, family of 6 and all HW COOLING and Heating , inclusive.
"Most Efficient (RATED) GT Unit in the world"
I see climate master is getting closer to Hydro-Temp (AR) efficiencies sizing 5/3 ratio HX to compressor (label-inside) BtuH's sizing. ( As ordered for many years : H-T 30Mbtu compressor gets a 4-ton HX water coil ~ about 5/3, and only requires under 1.3 gal per ton of 50-deg well water in comparison to so many requiring nearly 2gpm/compressor-ton open well). That has always been easy to test other units before closing the piping to ground loops for same refrigeration-gauge readings. Hydro-Temp has not had , nor needed an ARI/AHRI sticker since 1978, and look at the list of just a few schools operating at less than 1.8 KW/Sqft/School-year for all ... about 15% less than the nearest competitors in comparisons.
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docjenser
Veteran Member
Posts:1400
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| 12 Apr 2012 07:36 PM |
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You are confusing, or may be you are confused. What is your point? |
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| www.buffalogeothermalheating.com |
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GTJON
Basic Member
Posts:112
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| 16 Apr 2012 11:37 AM |
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In the latest I-Net adv, etc: Others' claims, I.E.) CM= "Most Efficient (RATED) GT Unit in the world" I see CM
sizing 5/3 ratio HX to compressor (ARI-label-inside) BtuH's
like www.Hydro-Temp.com Corp (Arkansas)
H-T 30Mbtu compressor gets a 4-ton HX water coil ~ about 5/3,
and
only requires under 1.3 gal per ton of 50-deg well water
in comparison to so many requiring nearly 2gpm/compressor-ton open well).
@ 1.8 KW/ Sq Ft per School year
about 15% less than the nearest competitors in comparisons.
C U Soon !
..
Some answer please:
or I can re word the Q - - -
How much really is saved with DX
compared to
(a known) the 9000 KWH 3600 sq ft well insulated home
considering all Heating Cooling and Instant on-demand HW (PRIORITY 100% H-T Patented 1981)
and in Cooling full Heat-Recovery to 100% water Heating (which at that time DOES have the lloop pumps are off liine then)...?
If a Hi Eff comon GT HVAC HW 100% is only metered @ 9000 KWH... what'ya s'pose DX really would save,
<-same balance point to supplemental heat required on a same heating and cooling and HW residence> ?
How much really is saved with DX ? |
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GTJON
Basic Member
Posts:112
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| 16 Apr 2012 11:55 AM |
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Like I wrote Joe:
I agree here and like your site
JP |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 17 Apr 2012 01:12 PM |
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What does DX save? Liitle. Nothing. Or perhaps costs by the time you buy a machinary room. |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 17 Apr 2012 01:12 PM |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 17 Apr 2012 01:12 PM |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 17 Apr 2012 01:12 PM |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 17 Apr 2012 01:12 PM |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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GTJON
Basic Member
Posts:112
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| 17 Apr 2012 01:45 PM |
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Thanks J
JP
(server sent 6 eM's and I see 'em here from you...)
No answer Needed (nan) |
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