Reads like good arguments for hiring a pro, eh?

(Or doing a DIY mini-split instead. ;-) )

This thread gives me a good reason to post and ask for some help selecting equipment.
I installed a system in 1995 that I built myself from a 2.5 ton carrier air to air condensor and air handlier. It's working fine but I'm getting old and waiting for a knee replacement and thinking about replacing my system with a package unit. It would be a simple job for me. I added 160 sq. ft. to the house since then and want to increase to 3 tons. I have 4x600 ft. loops at 8ft. and have never gone below 38 degrees or above 78 in 17 yrs. I don't care about 2 stage, zoning or DHW as I have solar that handles that. Ductwork is good for 1500 cfm. What (package unit) would the group suggest? Just want something as reliable as what I put together but my wife could call a local company to service if I croak. I have found some deals on FHP and others for a 3 ton horizontal for around $3K plus strips and thermostat.

That's a smokin' price!

As long as you stick with one of the major brands, differences range from minor to immaterial. WF, CM, FHP, Hydron, all have their fans here.

Since you want your wife to be able to call a local company, consider reaching out to a reputable one now, pre-croak, and see what they suggest. Engage them on a consulting basis with the understanding that they'll inherit its care and feeding, post-croak. A good, flexible company will work with you on that basis.

Stick a preaddressed post card with a USPS "forever" stamp to them in with your will, to be mailed upon croak, so that they get a heads up to start up the maintenance contract work.

Proper Planning Prevents Pee-Poor Project Performance.

Posted By Dana1 on 14 Mar 2012 06:37 PM
Reads like good arguments for hiring a pro, eh?

(Or doing a DIY mini-split instead. ;-) )

Really is that what you take away from this?

Sooo....if I have a 2 story with 3,000sf and a duct system I wish to retro fit, your advice is a (1) minisplit?

I think my advice is probably better.

Frankly it's probably easier to DIY geo than a mini split without refrigeration experience.

I'm not sure we butt heads that often Dana but your implication that this was designed to argue folks away from DIY is rather unkind. Your suggestion of a DIY minisplit for all occasions is simply ignorant.

DIY is a great thing,as long as you are competent at all aspects of the project! I am a jack of all trades, will try anything atleast once and usually more if $$ aren't prohibitive. I built an 888 sq ft shop hydronic heat, geo pump, hd spray foam top to bottom.
1st mistake i sized my ground loops using faulty info from a well meaning engineering student. 10 ft deep slinky loops in NE WY winters doesn't give enough btu's! Asthe ouutrside temp neared 0 deg the system froze up, even with anti freeze!
Almost 2nd mistake- hire driller to punch (3) 200 ft vertical holes for new ground loops. Solid limestone starting at 15 ft deep made that option cost prohibitive. He was driling me a domestic water well anyway.
1st saving grace- Cut my losses, installed a modulating boiler and panel which heats the shop to 55deg rather efficiently. Since I had a loaner back hoe to lay the 1st geo tube losses were sorta small, guess it could have been worse. I did save lots of $$ by making my own manifolds and fill system. No codes here but alll work is done with safety and all the profesionalism i could use on the project.

10 ft deep slinky loops in NE WY winters doesn't give enough btu's!

They will - if they are long enough. You might also consider open loop (since you have a well).

I went down the install your own geo route. But at the end of the day, I am not risking something as technical and costly as a geo system. Also the rebates and credits I will get back had to be with a licensed installer. After the rebates, I would be saving roughly $1-2k on DIY...not even close to worth it. $10k, maybe start to think about it. I received 2 quotes from 2 great geo installers. They were $600 difference! $20k put in a 2 ton WF unit, with desuper, vertical wells, ducting, and HRV. Take of rebates and credits and it nets around $10,500. This is for new ICF construction, btw. 2 hyper heat Mitsubishi mini splits will run half that plus install. Then I need to add in the HRV and ducting for that, as well as ugly electric baseboards for backup heat. Adds up to be close to a wash.

I'm with Jon on this one. the depth was more than adequate (we bury ours 6' in MI) you needed more feet. There might even be freeware out there now for loop design.
What's more with proper antifreeze mix geo should shut off on pressure switch before icing. If not it's likely only the coax is frozen.

My most recent DIY customer had to be persuaded to up his loop size, but he'll be glad he did (or at least not be sorry he didn't).
Hopefully you won't be afraid to try again since you already have the equipment.

Posted By Hockeyman on 20 Mar 2012 03:42 AM
DIY is a great thing,as long as you are competent at all aspects of the project! I am a jack of all trades, will try anything atleast once and usually more if $$ aren't prohibitive. I built an 888 sq ft shop hydronic heat, geo pump, hd spray foam top to bottom.
1st mistake i sized my ground loops using faulty info from a well meaning engineering student. 10 ft deep slinky loops in NE WY winters doesn't give enough btu's! Asthe ouutrside temp neared 0 deg the system froze up, even with anti freeze!
Almost 2nd mistake- hire driller to punch (3) 200 ft vertical holes for new ground loops. Solid limestone starting at 15 ft deep made that option cost prohibitive. He was driling me a domestic water well anyway.
1st saving grace- Cut my losses, installed a modulating boiler and panel which heats the shop to 55deg rather efficiently. Since I had a loaner back hoe to lay the 1st geo tube losses were sorta small, guess it could have been worse. I did save lots of $$ by making my own manifolds and fill system. No codes here but alll work is done with safety and all the profesionalism i could use on the project.

As pointed out before, slinky loops work very well in heat dominated climate in the US. We use them 90% of the time.
http://www.buffalogeothermalheating.com/sample_diagram.html
You are welcome to check our life monitoring site to see horizontal loopfield performance in the Northeast.
Don't misinform people here. Second, we drill all the time in the Limestone of the Niagara escarpment. It is the cheapest and quickest drilling, since we do not have to cast, the rock does not collapse and keeps the borehole open.
sorry your DYI project did not turn out, but your story helps explain to others here why that is the case.

Docjenser, i never misinformed anyone! I explainied what worked and didn't work here at MY place. I am sure that the limestone in your area is more solid than what we were trying to bore through here in NE Wyoming. The driller had to case the bore hole to prevent it collapsing on the drill tool. I only related my experiences, both positive and negative your mileage may differ.

Posted By Hockeyman on 24 Mar 2012 01:10 AM
Docjenser, i never misinformed anyone! I explainied what worked and didn't work here at MY place. I am sure that the limestone in your area is more solid than what we were trying to bore through here in NE Wyoming. The driller had to case the bore hole to prevent it collapsing on the drill tool. I only related my experiences, both positive and negative your mileage may differ.

10 ft deep slinky loops in NE WY winters doesn't give enough btu's! Asthe ouutrside temp neared 0 deg the system froze up, even with anti freeze!
Solid limestone starting at 15 ft deep made that option cost prohibitive.

You made two misinformed and misleading statements. First, 10ft deep slinkies will work very well in NE WY if you design them correctly. Second, solid limestone as you described it is great for drilling and is not cost prohibitive. The fact that your mileage differs is likely more related to you lacking a bit know how and your drill being not in solid limestone.
There are many people here seeking information, who would be mislead by your statements.

i fully admitted i made lots of mistakes in the planning, installation and operation of my system. I believe thats what the DIY part of this is about! I never said that my shortcoming were the only way to go about a geothtermal heat project. I believe that this discussion was started asking what experiences were had buy others in DIY geo heating! If stating my poorly planned experience mislead others then they probably shouldn't be a diy'er! I still consider $30+foot to run vertical loops cost prohibitive, just my humble opinion. In stead of slamming me maybe your expertice would be better served explaining things better than the bad choices i made! Have a nice day.

Posted By Hockeyman on 25 Mar 2012 03:00 AM
i fully admitted i made lots of mistakes in the planning, installation and operation of my system. I believe thats what the DIY part of this is about! I never said that my shortcoming were the only way to go about a geothtermal heat project. I believe that this discussion was started asking what experiences were had buy others in DIY geo heating! If stating my poorly planned experience mislead others then they probably shouldn't be a diy'er! I still consider $30+foot to run vertical loops cost prohibitive, just my humble opinion. In stead of slamming me maybe your expertice would be better served explaining things better than the bad choices i made! Have a nice day.

It is not your "poorly planned experience" which might mislead others, but the statements you have made. Especially for DIY. Your slinky at 10ft did not fail because it is WY climate, it probably failed because it was not long enough, not spaced correctly or did not have the right antifreeze concentration. Your vertical option was not economically thesisable because of driling in solid limestone, but because your driller charged you $30+ per foot or you run into bad drilling conditions. At that price vertical wells would not be thesisable for me as well.
I am trying to help people here every day. That is why I objected to your statements. The reason why it did not work for you is because you did not execute it well, and not because what you were trying to do does not work in general. That is important to understand, especially for DIYers in this forum.

We too are also in Western, NY and have installed a combination of Vertical, Horizontal Slinky & Horizontal multi-pass (race-track) with no such issues in our climate. It all comes down to the proper design of the system. We also have many systems monitored online as my good friend DOC does, all with acceptable and above average EWT's. 

I appreciated you sharing your experience hockeyman.....hopefully you will find a use for that heat pump!

DIY-er here, kinda..... here's my story.

I have an open loop system that I installed three years ago. I suppose you could say that I acted as my own "general" contractor for the project, and hired subs for the parts of the project that were beyond my capabilities. Two very high flow rate drilled wells already existed on the property, making open loop feasible. I don't think I would have been adventurous enough to try a closed-loop project if my well guy had told me that the wells were not going to do the job.

I used pros to do these tasks:
- heat-loss calcs/equipment sizing
- supply and injection well evaluation
- trench excavation for discharge line from house to injection well
- HVAC contractor for duct work and removing old furnaces and fuel lines
- electrical contractor (incl permits/inspection)

And I found it within my comfort zone to do these tasks myself:
- research (plenty of hours here + other geo-related forum + other online material)
- added blown-in attic insulation from big-box hardware store to R60 to reduce required tonnage
- purchased heat pumps online after a lot of careful investigation - picked a well-known brand with two-stage compressor, ECM fan, and R410a
- purchased new submersible well pump, well pressure tank, programmable thermostats, electrostatic air-filters (tank was local, other items online)
- purchased needed plumbing bits and pieces (many trips back and forth to the local big-box hardware stores and plumbing supply houses)
- rented concrete hammer-drill and bit, and made a nice, neat round hole through my basement foundation about 7' below grade
- installed interior and exterior plumbing (installed new well pump, well tank, supply line from well tank to heat pumps, discharge line from heat pumps through basement foundation to injection well)
- installed thermostats and pulled new LV wires from t-stats to heat pumps
- installed water control valves, dole flow control valves, and LV control wiring
- removed compressor shipping brackets
- system commissioning and testing (with plenty of assistance both here on this forum and from my HVAC and electrical pros)
- light landscaping...spreading/raking fill and grass seed over the path of the discharge line the next year

Yep, it was a lot of work and a good steep learning curve. Perhaps not a task that most homeowners would want to do. But if you already have, say, DIY plumbing and electrical skills and can find help for the rest, it is doable.

Lucky breaks:
- found really good local contractors to work with based on recommendations from family and friends
- great help from the pros on this forum
- somehow managed to not get ripped-off from online purchases
- equipment mostly worked as planned

Hiccups along the way:
- took a lot longer than I thought it would...mostly from the schedules of the different people involved
- had one bad thermostat on system startup (no signal on Y2 terminal) - switched t-stats to diagnose
- intended to use 6gpm for 1st stage, plus 3gpm more for 2nd stage...initial testing showed had to switch to 4gpm dole valves for 2nd stage to keep LWT reasonable when water pressure low and nearing pump cut-in setting
- had to pull well pump after a bit over a year of operation - one wire got stuck between well casing and torque arrestor and disintegrated. Fortunately it was an easy DIY fix.


End result...my house is nice and toasty warm without me hauling firewood all the time, i didn't break the bank for a geo install, and I can afford my heating bills. Yay!

JML, how much would you estimate you spent?

Perhaps a better question is how much did you save over turnkey bids?

Unfortunately there were no local geo installers in my neck of the woods who could give me a turnkey bid. I did get some estimates from a couple of companies willing to fly someone in to do the install, but those quotes were in the "breaking the bank" category ... more than double what I ended up spending. I can't really fault the companies that quoted...I imagine there's just so many costs and potential unknowns in quoting site-unseen on a remote job many hundreds of miles away.

DocJ

Thank you so much detail.



This is not a challenge of wits, too many can see well enough.

we like blunt statements



If his driller IS too expensive and I question it NOT KNOWING ALL THE INFORMATION BEHIND THE LINES
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~about something touched on re: costs of drilling.

Clearly I would only ask Hock WHAT WAS THE DRILLING COST and WHY would that have been a mistake TO HIM?
If I cared...much about the PERSON writing the post.

~
My first Controlair went in in 1980, I will try to be helpful and will be self controlled

....
(I had to be trained in interview style discourse. It still is a process with me to ask what do you mean about just....?)

Yeah JOE !

GREAT!

Working with a handful of DIY'ers

Like
found the Cleveland elder chiller builder of a large contracting company who said he designed that co's 1st chiller...

with a 20-year old system, so I did it for another, just as I saw, very inexpensively:

all the pipes from 4 loops hit PLASTIC barbs and PVC !!!

He said make the glue wet with primer and IMMEDIATELY put the rain-shine more flexible glue on.


down to one pump, just like companies of the 1980's did... 3-ton runs fine., the pump to the t_assembly can almost purge 2 lines at once with 15% glycol, he said.

I DO NOT LIKE PVC for a thirty-year system but the 1981-1084 installs are holding...

I (heat-) fuse all since ~ 1993 even DIY to inside when they want the header made up.

Quotes by Hockeyman: "10 ft deep slinky loops in NE WY winters doesn't give enough btu's! "


" Almost 2nd mistake- hire driller to punch (3) 200 ft vertical holes for new ground loops. Solid limestone starting at 15 ft deep made that option cost prohibitive..."

Here were the misleading statements. There are a lot of people here seeking information who are new to geo, who might get mislead by those statements. 10 ft deep slinkies will work great anywhere in the continental US for winter heat, if designed and installed correctly. Secondly, solid limestone is not cost prohibitive to drill in. It can be ideal, we get the lowest drilling quote if we hit bedrock as soon as possible. If I see misleading statements made here, me and others feel obligated to jump in and set the record straight. Hockeyman admits that he did many mistakes designing his system. Nobody is helped here if incorrect information by DIY selfers is passed on here. Other jumped in as well. No accusation here, simply ensuring that false information is not misleading others.

so I will ask HOCK:
although WE ALL NOTED just add more loop--- of any consequence... the instant as when viewed

I will ask WHAT

We had a wonderful DIY guy with a 42-deg loop in Col ohio this winter at PEAK COLDES 18deg...
4000 and a half walk out ICF uninsulated paltes...basement full of yipping chua's for show;
Well insulated uppers,
 ripped his dx out after 14 years like another after 16 years (Dx an work today...not to mislead, people get sued for undersized gas on manual J in Gates Mils under cleveland)

8) 2ft x 10ft deep at 240 ft each length 10ft apart
Hydro-Temp has 74k in that one (to some Size 7) with 3/4 x 8 on 1.1/2" two B&G NRF 36 pumps nearly 24 gpm...
a lotta HW  many days...  50 gal 125deg kept &  80 gallon GT reservoir recovers in minutes (18-24)

warm all over 72-74 upstairs , one zone with bypass at damper space in duct... said never hit stage 3 (both compressors) but a short time (2 hours over a 42 k (4.0) second compressor,  logged on Palm(tm) toolbox

Just to clarify, when I say misleading I certainly do not mean that this is intentional. Nevertheless, people here should be allowed to step in and correct it.

John very early in your first excruciatingly long post on this thread, you mentioned you were late to the conversation.......next time at that point leave it alone.
If you were familiar with Docs entire body of work, you would not have reacted the same way.

While we are on the subject, I can tell you I am to the point of skipping over your posts as getting to your point is exhausting. If you can't limit yourself to a paragraph or two, I suspect others will gloss over your contributions as well.
Enough about Hydrotemp as well. They are small beans in this industry and far from good advice. If they work for you, great. But to suggest a shopper seek them out is wrong headed at best. Why the He!! would anyone suggest their installer abandon their favorite for yours?

I too find gtjp responses very hard to follow. Simpler and clearer would be appreciated.

Posted By jonr on 23 Apr 2012 09:37 AM

I too find gtjp responses very hard to follow.

I find them not worth the effort. If Mr. gtjp doesn't have the common
courtesy to at least attempt writing coherent sentences, with some
remote resemblance to English syntax and punctuation, I refuse
to waste my time attempting to decipher his word salad.

It's too bad that this forum does't have an "ignore" filter -- or a
moderator willing to delete the rude scatter-shot spamming of
nearly every active thread.

Looby

Just think "Yoda" for syntax and comprehension goes way up.

for a self installed (decent) duct system and wiring and plumbing....
I found creative contracting may resolve losses of somewhat of a loss of Tax Crediting (that 30%).

At the end, the DIY was only about 2000 different
than had 30% kicked in on all for the credit. his hours were not accountable as dollars.
 How about the time he could have spent on other constructs of the new home?

Pleae find "major brands" are not as experienced as some of the other 8 brands that so many have well used.
1978 OEM: Hydro-Temp of arkansa was aksed by WF to build for them; and Carrier and Trane

What a price , but see if it has a 3-Ton compressor inside if it might matter to ya.
Major brand rated units frequently only have a 2.33 ton compressor in the "SIZE 3.0" box.

For "Size 3.0" useful DeHumidification, the blowers are slowed down.
This is simply put: For better results is just barely like  2.1/2 tons in a "3.0" then.
Have fun!

JP

www.GEOPros.org

Since the shoppers have a basis that can be shown to seek them out, I will adhear to available information for them.

Thanks for your site , still, Johe !

JP (GTJon)


Doc J and I know we disagree on what all was represented about hockey...  My body of work is reading as it is, not a pattern near something. This is why I will only say there was not enough evidence that hockey meant only "his mistake". Adding any more is not recognizable in debate, so it is here with me ended. "Up with this I will no longer put", to use correct english.

Hey joe:
Ya still just do HVAC GT
or do you install DeSuperheating hybrids as Energy Star(TM) has required of us to get the customer in place for a 30% credit?

The "it works for you" and "not clout" and whatever else won't stop the GC's and potential answers to questions answered with evidence: Priority HW is a FULL-Sized DeSuperheater for Full-Sized savings, and more dollars over 10 years but with the very same ROI-to perhaps a year longer from 2-7 years for returns on differences in 'out-of'pocket' .
Well if SINCE more loop is required, would it be safe to say more of that sustainable free energy is benefitting the beholder?

Performance guarantees have their way about sharing better systems. We can all share more acuraete choices, right?


wwwGEOPros.org

....no DSH and on demand DHW are not the same. No WTA units with DSH are not considered hybrid. No use of a DSH does not add a double digit percent of operating hours.

.....and so we jump from incoherent to misinformed or disingenuous.

John I don't know that I dislike you. I don't know that I wouldn't enjoy chatting with you about geo sometime. I do know that so far I dislike your contributions here. Your constant resurrection of old threads, disruption of new threads, criticism of respected contributers, promotion of an obscure product, incoherent babblings in multiple consecutive posts etc. are ill mannered and unhelpful.

I will alert admin to all future posts that continue this rude behavior and ask that they intervene.......or hopefully you can edit yourself into useful contributions.

Thank you for at least trying to understand, as I will:
NOW
POLITELY JOHE!

All one has to do is ask when there is a confusing point.
DocJ wanted to know, so he asked.
Others shared "what do you mean?", and I reworded with more EVIDENCE, and it was replied OK!
to respond to the first direction received: no clout, before I knew you did not know, seemed critical... just a bit, eh
then size of potatoes
then 'take w/ grain of salt' 
ahh  who clouds but some just not using a machine ON SCHOOL BIDS by climate master and others
a first in Dual compressor single circuit in GT later copied by TRANE
building for the same and Carrier and did for WF

then misguidence as a heat pump is a SIMPLE machine (wikepedia def needs simplifying) may come from my english, but not the facts I will learn to put in to others semantics, eventually

so
symaniacally  oh- semantically writing:

a compressor with a piece of pipe of it ADDED beyond GEO EXCHANGE and others def of a GT HtP, is less hybrid than a longer piece of FULL desuperheating- copper tubing...?
--- well that is too dizzy to me.
But
if that longer size pipe-tubing -HX area plate in the exact same spot
DOES DESUPERHEAT
does precisely DeSuperheat,
 in heating
and cooling
and then acts as a desuperheater, is LONGER than SHORT-HYBRID-ADD-ON desuperheaters... but some would gesture: not a DeSuperheater?
to me that is just dizziness...

OK Green VIEWERS:
 I will give the questions to ask. This is no different than any over-engineered review, so

A GeoThermal water-source heat pump:
Does it have a compressor?
Can it run without a tubing of copper-pipe  called a desuperheater?
WHY does it have to have one for Tax Credits and rebates?

IS it AS OK
- if that add-on tubing-desuperheater was  of a larger size to BE ABLE TO receive more refrigerant-heat off the hot side of the compressor as it runs?
 Will it desuperheat, then , too?

Describe a water:water unit
as we get away from the compressor ---Is it a large enough heat exchanger that I can find on the hot side of the compressor to get all the heat? 
-so if you have an Energy Star Compliant DeSperheater
-pipe part ADDED in front of the GT section main heater W:W or a water-to-air,
 standard system,
 having a  large heat exchnager but as a device, just acting on heat per square inch ( a small hybrid-add-on-desuperheater that allows WORK for water or other fluids recirculated through it such as Domestic Water to receive heat-energy)
- is it more or is it any less, -JUST a HEAT EXCHANGE DEVICE?
any less a heat exchanger?

~~~Then would a longer tube in its place, also sharing heat first, also be able and in fact ACT LIKE A DESUPERHEATER?
Is that WHY it is recognized by all standards
in COMPLIANCE
alone withoutanother little-add-on-standard-desuperheater, because it IS just like a desuperheater, as far as water heating is concerned?

Did Hydro-Temp (AR) -unlike h-Delta in PA) --- did that function off the compressor about the patent in 1981 for also IN COOLING simultaneously pulling heat off the first heat of the compressor indicated as PRIORITY 100% On-Demand HW act any different than a W:W unit making chilled water on the cold side of the compressor while possibly making HW for my water tank, just like that larger piece off the hot side of a Hydro-Temp compressor?

Do you install -like-to-that with devices we are asking about, W:W?
Do you think if the palce of the usually called desuperheater is with a longer heat exchanger (fuller) that I can AVOID BUYING A W:W PLUS A WATER-AIR as 2 separate units? 
How much money will I save?

...

JP

www.GEOPros.org

Again virtually incomprehensible John, but PLEASE do not try to explain. I'm past the point of sorting through each barrel of dung in a quest for one kernel of corn.

Posted By joe.ami on 30 Apr 2012 01:19 PM
Again virtually incomprehensible John, but PLEASE do not try to explain.

Agreed.  Long ago (well, it seems like long ago given the frequent, lengthy, incomprehensible posts) I began deleting his posts from my email post notification without reading them (not that the posts are readable anyway.)  I'll setup an email rule to have future posts go directly to the trash can.

Will you really refuse to share with a cutomer the "least costly investment as a maintained system in 7 years" as HUD declared?

The public will be asking more.

It is WHY other manufacturers see fit to fit it in more than ever before.

Peace Johe.

Huh?
Crap. There's an H in jhoe again.
joe