The perfect system
Last Post 02 Oct 2014 11:45 AM by docjenser. 12 Replies.
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docjenserUser is Offline
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27 Sep 2014 03:42 PM
Let me just pick everyone's brain here.

I had the chance to build the perfect system. I was ask to build the most efficient, most comfortable and most advanced geo system for a 10,000 sqf house. Parameters: 10,000 Sqf living space, 10+ acres of land, 50 KW solar system already on the roof, 2000 gallon aquarium, 1,200 sqf greenhouse/botanical , waterfall in the green house also with tropical saltwater fish in indoor pond. 100,000 BTU/H heatload, 50,000 BTUs/h cooling load. 35,000 BTUs heating load for the attached greenhouse.
So you are the kid in the candy store. Now what do you do?
Radiant? Forced air? How do you control it? What pumps do you use? How do you monitor it? Loopfield design? Pumping redundancy? How do you push comfort and efficiency? Aquarium needs to be at 75F all year around (has a 1.5 KW circulation pump), waterfall needs to be at 70F all year around (for the fish in the pond below), has a 2.5 KW circulation pump.
Location in Western New York.
www.buffalogeothermalheating.com
joe.amiUser is Offline
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28 Sep 2014 09:03 AM
Those two pumps are pretty heavy loads and your latent heat should be high around the water fall and aquarium. Are you cooling the green house?
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
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engineerUser is Offline
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28 Sep 2014 08:02 PM
Hard to imagine not doing radiant in a Buffalo-cold climate, although a 10 KSF house with just 100 kBtuh heating load.

Pumps sound awfully big...any way to downsize or equip with VFDs?

I'd want a room-by-room load calc so as to work out a proper zoned system(s). A single 4 ton Series 7 would probably tote the cooling load, although Joe's concern about latent is an important consideration...might need dedicated dehu

Pump redundancy - I'd say so.

Swimming pool? Standby generator? Home automation? Use home automation to monitor systems?

Can you hold a pool or pond in western NY at 70*F 24/7/365 without some COOLING? Some heat pump pool heaters are reversible.

I hope there is a well written mechanical specification for all this...or do you get to write it?

I had a near candy-store like experience along those lines last December, except that the client milked me and one other vendor colleague dry of all advanced energy info and passed our design work to his favored incumbent subs...Grr!

Curt Kinder <br><br>

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
docjenserUser is Offline
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29 Sep 2014 12:10 AM
Yep, greenhouse will be cooled above 90F.


I am betting that the waterfall and aquarium will have such a heavy load that we will be cooling them only. The fish require a titanium heat exchanger.

Yes, I am a radiant fan. We have the zone calcs, but I am not sure if that is crucial at this stage. Yes, I wrote the specs. Yes, swimming pool (seasonal), central control system with monitoring.This is real, we are already putting it in. Just to clarify, it is not that I would not have an idea on how to design a system like that, I have done it many times, but my designs have evolved over time. Thus I am seeking further input of creative ideas in order to combine them with my design, to see how we can push the envelope for the best compromise for heating and cooling and domestic hot water (and pool, fish tank, greenhouse, waterfall etc). Who knows, maybe those ideas become the new standard.
www.buffalogeothermalheating.com
engineerUser is Offline
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29 Sep 2014 09:20 PM
Given the wide variety of loads and likely widely spaced peaks it might be well to try to come up with some sort of grand bin analysis of what element will likely need what heat transfer (in or out) under what outdoor conditions. Example - Dehumidifying a greenhouse could help heat a pool.

In some future reality we'll have configurable variable refrigerant flow systems able to take on all these tasks in an integrated controlled fashion, maybe about when we get self driving cars.
Curt Kinder <br><br>

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
joe.amiUser is Offline
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30 Sep 2014 07:15 AM
definately see a WTW unit at work both heating and chilling water.
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
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30 Sep 2014 10:07 AM
Posted By joe.ami on 30 Sep 2014 07:15 AM
definately see a WTW unit at work both heating and chilling water.


I agree, I actually see multiple staged units actually doing both heating and cooling at the same time.
The greenhouse does not have enough surface area for exclusive radiant thus it will be a mix of radiant/forced air. There is a misting system in the greenhouse, plus the waterfall, both don't help with humidity. I see maybe a forced air for the greenhouse with a reheat coil. WTW for radiant floors, radiant shower walls and floors, radiant countertops, radiant towel warmers...and we need chilled water cooling anyway to keep the fish happy. Yep I am with you.
www.buffalogeothermalheating.com
ChrisJUser is Offline
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30 Sep 2014 11:17 AM
It may only be useful during heating season, but could the ground loop brine be used to cool the aquarium and pond water? No compressors used just pump power.

Chris
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30 Sep 2014 03:50 PM
Posted By ChrisJ on 30 Sep 2014 11:17 AM
It may only be useful during heating season, but could the ground loop brine be used to cool the aquarium and pond water? No compressors used just pump power.

Chris


Yes, others have approached me with that idea, but the controls might get too complex. Keep in mind that we must make reliable cooling "on demand", otherwise the fish will not be happy.
www.buffalogeothermalheating.com
joe.amiUser is Offline
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01 Oct 2014 09:09 AM
"The greenhouse does not have enough surface area for exclusive radiant thus it will be a mix of radiant/forced air. "
Green houses/solariums are tricky as I'm sure you know Doc. Heat gain tends to come on very hard and very fast as sun shines on the building. We have a solarium of less than 150SF with glass walls on 2 sides, brick on 2 sides and a glass lid with retractable shade. A 3 ton WTW air handler can barely keep it under 100F when it gets hit by bright sunshine.
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
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01 Oct 2014 09:43 AM
We call it "the tropical room", it is 1200 sqf, vaulted glass roof, 2 sides of glass walls, palm trees, about 600 sqf of polished concrete walkways, is attached to the gym, has a larger waterfall with stingrays etc in the pond below, a misting system, we put radiant pipes in the walkways (4" O.C.), .. and a couple of very talkative parrots!

They can open 2 sides of the glass walls, so I am not worried about cooling to much, I am more worried about the humidity in the winter condensing on the glass roof on a zero degree day and having Niagara Falls in there!
www.buffalogeothermalheating.com
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02 Oct 2014 09:35 AM
Aren't impromptu rain showers common in the Tropics?
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02 Oct 2014 11:45 AM
Posted By ICFHybrid on 02 Oct 2014 09:35 AM
Aren't impromptu rain showers common in the Tropics?


Indeed, they are, but the tropics are 1500 miles south without zero degree nights...Trying to recreate a tropical climate in Western New York indeed has its challenges.
www.buffalogeothermalheating.com
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