Traditional Basement Insulation ?
Last Post 19 Mar 2009 02:19 PM by Dana1. 11 Replies.
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newbiejohnUser is Offline
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03 Mar 2009 12:08 PM
If I put in a traditional basement in the North East, where we get well below zero temps in the winter what are the most effective ways to insulate this cement? Rigid foam insulation on the outside? What about under the floor? Keep in mind the basement will not be finished but in keeping with trying to superinsulate the entire structure.
The SipperUser is Offline
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03 Mar 2009 01:55 PM
OK, Newbiejohn, so, I'll bite! Why not ICF's? And, of course you should insulate under the floor. Is it actually less costly in your area to form and pour conventionally, and then come back and add rigid foam on the outside of the wall, and/or the inside for that matter, than just using an ICF system? If it is, is it enough less to offset the benefits of a properly installed, quality, ICF system? Block type(Many brands), or Vertical (TF)?

In any event, I'm sure that you'll get many suggestions and comments in response to this post, just as you did as a result of your previous posts.

Good luck in your search for your own "holy grail" (as related to your building project)
The Sipper
newbiejohnUser is Offline
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03 Mar 2009 01:58 PM
Sipper,

My question wasnt posted as something to 'bite'. And im not looking for the holy grail however I know that in your world ICF is the holy grail.

Im asking what the best way and how much to insulate a reg foundation.

And to answer your question, there are NO ICF installers where im from, unless they were to travel almost 5 hours to where I am and yes thats not cost efficient.
The SipperUser is Offline
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03 Mar 2009 02:59 PM
Newbiejohn, One of the problems with this type of communication, is that the tone that is intended is not always conveyed. There was no intent to be sarcastic, or contentious, in connection with my last post. If we had been speaking in person you would have understood that I was being sincere, and was trying to add a bit of humor to the mix. Actually, I had started to add a statement to that effect, but, in the interest of brevity, I deleted it. So, I apologize if you feel that my post was out of line.

So, hopefully, we can move along in our combined efforts to educate, inform, and assist, one another, in regards to the subjects which are covered within the various forums on this website. Having said that, my "holy grail" comment was intended to take the place of the usual longer closing sentence to my posts which is "Good luck with your search for the best building systems and products for your personal project, after all that is what this is all about, isn't it?"

Now, even after all of that, isn't there some experienced, and reliable, CG (concrete guy) who would be interested in at least considering the idea of getting up to speed with ICFs? And, though this is not exactly on topic, are there any "SIP guys" in your area? (Not for basements but for roofs, walls, and, sometimes, floors) I think that I remember that in your original thread you stated that you were'nt interested in SIPs or ICFs, and quite a bit of "dialogue" was generated in connection with that statement. Frankly, I'm intrigued with the information that your nearest ICF source is 5 hours away. There are probably a number of ICF suppliers who would be interested in knowing the general area where you're building so that they could try to get someone set up to install their product. (or, did you disclose that info already in one of your previous posts?)

Last comment, and I'll get out of here. I know that you're aware that posts such as this are not only directed at the instigator of a particular thread but at a broad audience, many of which may never participate in this exchange of ideas.

Oh, and, again, good luck with your project, no matter what products and materials that decide to use.

The Sipper
toddmUser is Offline
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03 Mar 2009 03:58 PM
The Canadians take their basements seriously, not surprisingly. Here is a link to a canadian report on basement wall systems http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/pubs/rr/rr199/rr199.pdf
And here is a computer model that allows you to play with insulation schemes: http://canmetenergy-canmetenergie.nrcan-rncan.gc.ca/eng/software_tools/basecalc.html
And finally here is a company in Mass. that sells reclaimed insulation board by the semi load: www.insulationdepot.com. (You'd need a semi load if you put foam board between your stud walls.)
On basement insulation, the above-grade part of the wall is a must do, the rest of the wall is should do, and the basement floor is optional. The University of Minn, did a recent study showing that two inches of extruded polysytrene, or R10, is the point of diminishing returns for exterior insulation on basement walls.
You shouldn't rule out a regular slab on grade without pricing it first. If you don't want a basement, a slab saves some concrete and foam, and all the wood in the first floor. If you are far, far north, you may need a 5 foot wall to get below frost level.
BTW, ICF is cost competitive below grade because concrete is not optiona. I'm using it for a 3-foot stem wall under a slab on grade. (Couldn't reach native soil with an FPSF either.)
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03 Mar 2009 04:47 PM
OK, a caveat. ICF is cost competitive below grade unless building officials make you drywall a basement that you wouldn't finish otherwise.
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05 Mar 2009 08:37 PM
Use InSoFast to insulated the walls, and do insulate with a high density XPS under the floor.
Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net
want to buildUser is Offline
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06 Mar 2009 12:02 PM
What are the advantages of insulating an unfinished basement vs. insulating the ceiling of the basement to isolate the living space?

My friend has a house built in the 1920's. Basement is not insulated. Summer or winter it's a pretty constant 65 degrees.
thagreenUser is Offline
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06 Mar 2009 02:07 PM
Insolating the outside of your basement is a good idea and can easily be done w/2'' eps . One of my buddies did this and eliminated 50% of the humidity. Chances are you'll store something down there and might get damp, not wet but damp. Overall it's a win-win in my book eliminating moisture, mold etc.
Good luck! Hope you make the right choice towards your goal.
Cheers!
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19 Mar 2009 10:07 AM
Newbiejohn, are you familiar with concrete sandwich wall construction? This is where you place the insulation in between two layers of concrete, which allows you to take advantage of the mass properties of the concrete. The "mass effect" makes the walls very energy efficient and can also virtually eliminate moisture build-up and mold growth in the basement. I recently saw this technology at a trade show and I think the product was called T-Mass or something.
AltonUser is Offline
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19 Mar 2009 02:04 PM

See http://www.thermomass.com/   THERMOMASS Building Insulation System

Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979
Dana1User is Offline
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19 Mar 2009 02:19 PM
Posted By want to build on 03/06/2009 12:02 PM
What are the advantages of insulating an unfinished basement vs. insulating the ceiling of the basement to isolate the living space?

[b]My friend has a house built in the 1920's. Basement is not insulated. Summer or winter it's a pretty constant 65 degrees.[/b]
[/quote]
The reason it's 65F in the winter it most likely distribution loss from the heating system, and the reason  it's 65F in the summer is air leakage from the outside. This sounds more like a heat-leak DISASTER than a hallmark of efficiency!  

(I know this intimately, 'cuz I live in a 1920s house that FORMERLY had an uninsulated basement, and yes, it WAS an efficiency disaster.  ;-) )

How is it better to insulate the walls instead of isolating it from the living space above? Let me tick off some ways...

*Insulating the walls tends to have fewer errors in installation than trying to perfectly air-seal & insulate without gaps between the basement & first floor.

**It thermally earth-couples the house helping summertime cooling somewhat while dramatically reducing wintertime losses.  (The R-value of a poured concrete wall is typically about R1 or less.)

***In many homes it's also simply less material- a smaller surface area to insulate + less labor to apply = lower cost.

****It puts the heating plant (furnace/boiler, ducts/pipes) completely inside the thermal boundary of the structure, resulting in improved system efficiency (heat leaks from the distribution stay on the warm side of the insulating boundary.)

*****It puts the wood framing of the floor joists, etc on the conditioned-space side of the insulation, keeping it above the dew point, reducing condensation & mold growth hazard.

******It keeps the potable water plumbing inside of the thermal boundary, lowering it's freeze potential.

I could go on, but it's just better- trust me. (I'll stop here. :-)  )

The easiest DIY method of retrofitting is gluing XPS, EPS, or un-faced ISO to the walls, sealing the seams with mastic, then applying furring strips & the code-required 1/2" sheet rock thermal barrier over that.  The easiest (an perhaps best from a perfectionist point of view) is to spray-foam the foundation, sill & bandjoist all in one operation, and build a thin profile mini-stud wall (2" steel studs, not wood 2x4s) to mount the thermal barrier sheet rock.  Even if you use sheet goods, air-sealing & insulating the band joist & sill should be part of the project (that's typically the single largest air leak in older homes- bigger than all of the doors & windows combined!)

You have to be careful when using fiberglass or cellulose insulation in basements- it's easy to set up situations where the vapor-pressure from the soil/foundation creates condensation within the insulation for part of the year. In fiberglass that leads to mold, in cellulose it can lead to saturation that takes too long to dry. Permeable & semi-permeable plastic insulation is more reliable, best if set up as a perfect air-barrier (DO mastic-seal the joints of sheet goods!)  Use permeable paints if you finish the walls too- no vinyl or foil wallpapers, etc. That way the ever-present vapor pressure of concrete is always inward drying but doesn't allow massive air-transport of moisture from room air to condense & freeze on the now much-colder concrete wall.

There's a bunch of detailed stuff on basement insulation issues here:

http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-0202-basement-insulation-systems

Once you've air-sealed the basement, if you have any atmospheric-drafted heating equipment there (hot water heater, furnace/boiler that aren't sealed-combustion with an external air supply) it's a good idea to test for back-drafting & hood spillage, especially if you have a clothes dryer in the basement that can de-pressurize it considerably (in really tight homes, a dryer even on the first floor can create this issue, but it's hard to retrofit that tight.)  Have a pro do it, or look up on how it's done- it's not rocket science, but I don't want to waste the space here other than to flag it as an issue.

[edited to add...]For new construction, going with insulated concrete forms is almost a no-brainer.   For a crawlspace or single-story foundation wall it doesn't take a contractor with a decade of experience.  Even if a rank newbie at it screws up and experiences a blowout, it's generally pretty easy to rectify (been there, done that, on a 300square foot addition at my own home. :-) )  Rocket science it is not.
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