Under Slab on Grade Insulation
Last Post 19 Mar 2011 04:36 PM by Alton. 31 Replies.
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Town CreekUser is Offline
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05 Mar 2011 07:51 PM
We will be building a slab on grade home in Auburn Al. Should we install under slab insulation?
I was wondering since our area is a primary cooling climate if i would be working against the coolness of the earth by insulating? Also should i consider a perimeter insulation?
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06 Mar 2011 10:12 AM
Dana1 would be the best to answer this question, but my guess is that unless you plan to have radiant heat in the floor, then only the walls down to footer should be insulated.

Consider using spray foam for the attic.  If this is beyond your budget, then consider cellulose instead of fiberglass.
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06 Mar 2011 02:17 PM
As always, i will put in my plug for solid passive solar design. If well located, the summer sun will be excluded from the house. The slab, if not insulated from below, will absorb interior heat and disperse it to earth below. This is as you surmise. If you insulate with a shallow frost footer, you will also have warmer soil in the winter, reducing the heat load. This is similar to a PAHS design, but the wing insulation is not as extensive. Any winter solar gain does not immediately radiate away from the edges because the shallow foot wing insulates several feet out from the slab edge. The shallow footer package thus helps in both summer and winter, although not to the extent that full under slab would in winter, or no insulation might in summer.
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06 Mar 2011 05:00 PM

Good advice, thanks. Agree with excluding the summer sun &  we are designing to do so. Would you, budget allowing, insulate both the perimeter foundation wall and insulate under the slab?
What is PAHS design by the way?

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06 Mar 2011 05:11 PM
Thanks Alton for the help. We will be installing sprayed foam in the entire building envelope. I was wondering if we should install the foam board under the slab as well as the foundation walls.
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06 Mar 2011 05:17 PM
Sir i will be using no radiant floor slab heating i forgot to mention
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06 Mar 2011 06:01 PM
If you do not plan to store solar heat in the slab nor have radiant heat, then I think for our climate using the earth for cooling would make more sense.  If you plan to store solar heat, then I normally use a minimum of R-10 under the slab for this climate.  Of course, Dana1 can be even more precise than my usual practice.
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07 Mar 2011 02:59 PM
It seems giving an off-the-cuff answer to this question is difficult without analyzing your specific location with respect to subsurface soil temperatures and your construction method with respect to the heat gain or loss of the walls, roof, etc. The value in having underslab insulation would seem to depend on what portion of the heat gain or loss it represents compared to the other portions of the building envelope. To that end, I have found the following website useful for obtaining soil temps.

http://www.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/scan/

The deepest reported temps are at 40 inches subsurface. This seems to be a reasonable depth to me as far as analysis of heat conduction from the slab to the earth. I was surprised at how much seasonal variation there is in soil temps at this depth. I imagine for more constant temperatures you have to go much deeper. I looked up soil temps for a location nearest yours (tuskegee) and at 40 inches down, the soil temps in January are running about 50F. From mid-June to early October, they're greater than 77F. So, I'm not convinced you can claim much if any heat rejection to the earth during the summer months. And, there is certainly some heat loss during the winter. Whether it's considered substantial depends on your climate and house construction.

It may be worthwhile to calculate the average daytime and nighttime heat gain and loss of your roof, walls, and windows for typical summer and winter to compare to the slab. I imagine there are some HVAC calculators that can do this. I've done this for a house design I'm working on in southern New Mexico but I explicitly calculated heat transfer rates using the heat conduction equation (I assumed conduction only for all surfaces). I was surprised to find that the conduction losses through the slab without insulation during daytime in January were as great as the sum of the losses from the windows, walls, and roof. Again, this is specific to my application. During the summer, the amount of heat rejection was small compared to the heat gain from the other surfaces (windows, walls, and roof).

It seems to me that if you go to the trouble of carefully controlling heat transfer from all the other boundaries of the structure, it makes sense to control heat flow through the slab as-well unless you can demonstrate a specific advantage otherwise.

That's my thoughts. I'd be interested to hear other thoughts or comments.
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10 Mar 2011 01:26 AM
Passive Annual Heat Storage is an alternative design that maximizes thermal storage by using eareth piled around and on top of house. An umbrella cap keeps the heat stored within this huge mass dry and insulated. Obviously, walls and roof are likely concrete; for strength and to pass heat through the floor and walls. Heat that enters the house in summer is transferred to the cooler surrounding soil. Remember, it's insulated, not the 72-77* temps quoted above. Heat is conducted in dry soil about 20 feet in 6 months. So when winter heating loads require it, the now warmer soil radiates the heat back into the house. When corrected designed, the yearly temp swings have been in the 6-10* range. Google Hait and PAHS to see more literature. http://earthshelters.com/ Thinshell domes with basalt rebar do not have a strong following or market acceptance, but are very practical. While I like the concept, I think an insulated thinshell like a Monolithic dome is more practical, even with less mass. A shallow frost footing insulated slab can provide much of the benefit of PAHS without going underground.
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10 Mar 2011 04:47 PM
With slab on grade you 'd have to sink in much deeper footings and insulate the stem walls to get much in the way earth coupling benefit. It's usually less material and lower cost to simply insulate the slab.

The PassiveHouse recently built in Louisiana had ~ R16 under the slab, and ~R20 basement/crawlspace walls:

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/greenhouse/post/2010/08/souths-first-passive-house/1

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/green-building-news/following-passive-house-deep-south

Insulating the footings and the whole slab to at least R8-R10 (2" of EPS or XPS) and putting at least R6 of thermal break (1" iso) on an otherwise pretty standard stick-built house can go a long way toward boosting performance, but optimizing the glazing/shading for optimal seasonal solar gain/rejection and making the structure air-tight is what makes or breaks it in the end for homes in the southeastern US.

You didn't ask but...

A typical wood clad 2x4 framed house with batts or open cell foam or cellulose cavity fill has a whole-wall R-value of about R10 once the thermal bridging of the framing is factored in. It's pretty cheap to DOUBLE that by going 2x6 24" on-center framing w/spray cellulose cavity fill, 1" of exterior rigid iso. Once you have whole-wall R values of ~R20 and you've gone R40+ roofs/ceilings the windows and air leakage factors are going to dominate the heat gain/loss in most homes, and reducing that is also cheap:

Going with smaller and casement/awning windows on the E/W/N sides of the house rather than big double-hungs or sliders (and NO SLIDING DOORS PLEASE! They all leak like crazy in short years), and designing S side overhangs & window sizes optimal seasonal gains takes a big bite out of heating & cooling energy requirements. Think of every square foot of double-glass as an R2-3 hole in your R20 wall. The gain/loss from a single 24x60" ~U0.5 double-pane is the same as 50 square feet of unbroken wall. Going with better grade low-E U0.34 double-panes it's still worth 30 square feet of unbroken wall. Casement and awning windows seal better than double-hungs or sliders, and provide more egress area for the same sized window than a double-hung or slider, where that's an important code factor. If performance is a goal, where you CAN go smaller without impacting daylighting or function, DO. Think about it room by room. Use fixed windows where you can for daylighting or taking in the view- they inherently leak less. Shrinking the glazed area 25% or re-balancing it for winter solar gain is usually cost neutral or even cost-negative. Going with more glass you'd have to go to much higher performance windows to keep the cooling/heating loads well bounded, and it's easy to end up doubling the upfront cost for only 25% more glazed area to stay in the same heat gain/loss range.

Designing the cooling/heating system so that all ducts stay inside the pressure & thermal boundary is also huge. If the ducts are in the attic, insulate the roof. Using 3-4" of sheet iso above the roof deck with a vented nailer deck above the iso puts a huge thermal break over the rafter or truss framing, and if it's a few simple pitches rather than a bunch of dormers & valleys it's about half the installed cost per unit R of closed cell spray foam. Finishing off the R with 4-5" open cell foam on the interior of the roof deck makes the roof deck the pressure & thermal boundary of the conditioned space- no venting necessary. But if the ducts can be routed elsewhere, 12-15" of low density cellulose on an air-sealed attic floor is a lot cheaper- just tryt to get at least 3" of blown over the tops of the joists or truss chords as a thermal break. (Low density cellulose is cheap, and usually outperforms low-density fiberglass under hot roof decks, and in cold-attic applications, ASTM C 518 tested R value at 75F notwithstanding. The performance differences in walls are smaller, but blown/sprayed fiber beats batts in real world installations since it's easier to fill in completely, with no gaps or compressions, and you can spray-fill micro-cavities as thin as 1/4" that you'd never stuff a batt-slice into.)

If you can make the slab/footing foam align on the exterior with the rigid iso on the walls and foam-seal/tape all seams, caulk the framing plates and studs to the sheathing as you go, and pay careful attention to sealing up all wall & ceilng penetrations it's possible to end up with very few thermal bridges and very low infiltration rates, and literally half or less the heating/cooling loads of a "typical" code-minimum house without expending a lot of money. You'll get modest amounts back on lower HVAC sizing, and your bills will be much lower. You'll need to have a dehumidify mode on the AC, since the sensible loads (temp only) will be a fraction of the latent loads ( humidity), but the tighter the house is, the lower the volume of sticky summer air you have to dehumidify.
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11 Mar 2011 10:38 AM
Posted By Dana1 on 10 Mar 2011 04:47 PM
With slab on grade you 'd have to sink in much deeper footings and insulate the stem walls to get much in the way earth coupling benefit. It's usually less material and lower cost to simply insulate the slab.

The PassiveHouse recently built in Louisiana had ~ R16 under the slab, and ~R20 basement/crawlspace walls:

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/greenhouse/post/2010/08/souths-first-passive-house/1

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/green-building-news/following-passive-house-deep-south

Insulating the footings and the whole slab to at least R8-R10 (2" of EPS or XPS) and putting at least R6 of thermal break (1" iso) on an otherwise pretty standard stick-built house can go a long way toward boosting performance, but optimizing the glazing/shading for optimal seasonal solar gain/rejection and making the structure air-tight is what makes or breaks it in the end for homes in the southeastern US.

You didn't ask but...

A typical wood clad 2x4 framed house with batts or open cell foam or cellulose cavity fill has a whole-wall R-value of about R10 once the thermal bridging of the framing is factored in. It's pretty cheap to DOUBLE that by going 2x6 24" on-center framing w/spray cellulose cavity fill, 1" of exterior rigid iso. Once you have whole-wall R values of ~R20 and you've gone R40+ roofs/ceilings the windows and air leakage factors are going to dominate the heat gain/loss in most homes, and reducing that is also cheap:

Going with smaller and casement/awning windows on the E/W/N sides of the house rather than big double-hungs or sliders (and NO SLIDING DOORS PLEASE! They all leak like crazy in short years), and designing S side overhangs & window sizes optimal seasonal gains takes a big bite out of heating & cooling energy requirements. Think of every square foot of double-glass as an R2-3 hole in your R20 wall. The gain/loss from a single 24x60" ~U0.5 double-pane is the same as 50 square feet of unbroken wall. Going with better grade low-E U0.34 double-panes it's still worth 30 square feet of unbroken wall. Casement and awning windows seal better than double-hungs or sliders, and provide more egress area for the same sized window than a double-hung or slider, where that's an important code factor. If performance is a goal, where you CAN go smaller without impacting daylighting or function, DO. Think about it room by room. Use fixed windows where you can for daylighting or taking in the view- they inherently leak less. Shrinking the glazed area 25% or re-balancing it for winter solar gain is usually cost neutral or even cost-negative. Going with more glass you'd have to go to much higher performance windows to keep the cooling/heating loads well bounded, and it's easy to end up doubling the upfront cost for only 25% more glazed area to stay in the same heat gain/loss range.

[edited to add: I'm an idiot (or needed more coffee)-  the heat gain/loss for that 24"x  60" window is worth 70-100 square feet of unbroken R20 whole-wall, not the 30-50 square feet it would be for typical 2x4 construction, which is how window ratings can easily dominate the numbers.]

Designing the cooling/heating system so that all ducts stay inside the pressure & thermal boundary is also huge. If the ducts are in the attic, insulate the roof. Using 3-4" of sheet iso above the roof deck with a vented nailer deck above the iso puts a huge thermal break over the rafter or truss framing, and if it's a few simple pitches rather than a bunch of dormers & valleys it's about half the installed cost per unit R of closed cell spray foam. Finishing off the R with 4-5" open cell foam on the interior of the roof deck makes the roof deck the pressure & thermal boundary of the conditioned space- no venting necessary. But if the ducts can be routed elsewhere, 12-15" of low density cellulose on an air-sealed attic floor is a lot cheaper- just tryt to get at least 3" of blown over the tops of the joists or truss chords as a thermal break. (Low density cellulose is cheap, and usually outperforms low-density fiberglass under hot roof decks, and in cold-attic applications, ASTM C 518 tested R value at 75F notwithstanding. The performance differences in walls are smaller, but blown/sprayed fiber beats batts in real world installations since it's easier to fill in completely, with no gaps or compressions, and you can spray-fill micro-cavities as thin as 1/4" that you'd never stuff a batt-slice into.)

If you can make the slab/footing foam align on the exterior with the rigid iso on the walls and foam-seal/tape all seams, caulk the framing plates and studs to the sheathing as you go, and pay careful attention to sealing up all wall & ceilng penetrations it's possible to end up with very few thermal bridges and very low infiltration rates, and literally half or less the heating/cooling loads of a "typical" code-minimum house without expending a lot of money. You'll get modest amounts back on lower HVAC sizing, and your bills will be much lower. You'll need to have a dehumidify mode on the AC, since the sensible loads (temp only) will be a fraction of the latent loads ( humidity), but the tighter the house is, the lower the volume of sticky summer air you have to dehumidify.


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11 Mar 2011 05:43 PM
Dana, you don't need deep stem walls for an earth coupled slab on grade in the south. There are many months in spring and fall when Goldilocks would be quite happy with the average soil temperature. The proper calculation is the number of days in a year when the slab moderates heating and cooling and the cumulative benefit, compared with the number of days and cumulative cost of the opposite result. Citing Passivehaus without running the numbers, complete with cost benefit analysis, isn't overly helpful. I am building an AAC house in Pa but that doesn't mean they belong here, or that I would get my money back in the near term, at sale or in energy savings.
I have anecdotal evidence on this one. I built a 2,200 sf farmhouse near dallas in 1983 on a completely naked slab on grade, which is the only way they came back then. I did the rest of it right, and I enjoyed an average electric bill of about $110/month at the end in 2003. Thanks to the natural gas boom in the Barnett shale, electric rates are cheaper today.
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11 Mar 2011 06:15 PM
Subsoil temps in Dallas are about 70F, so it's near-ideal for earth coupling. (Auburn's dirt is a few degrees cooler.) You could still probably rationalize slab-edge insulation continuous with insulating wall sheathing though, on a comfort basis, if not net-present-value on utility savings.

I'm not recommending anything LIKE PassiveHouse values (under the slab, or anywhere else). R8-10-ish under the slab costs you very little in additional cooling costs in a decently designed moderately insulated house, and it just plain feels better under foot, MOST of the time. I'd only suggest those levels if you're actually modeling it with the intent of going net-zero or PassiveHouse on it. The R8-R10 I recommended is only half what they did under the slab in the PassiveHouse project I cited.

It's not all about NPV of operating costs against utility savings- it's about comfort at the temperature extremes too. An R20 or higher whole-wall house just plain FEELS better than R10 in just about every part of the lower 48 (except maybe in coastal San Diego county CA), and it doesn't cost a whole lot extra to build compared to a code-minimum house.

I'm not going to place any bets on direction future electricity prices, but if personal transportation becomes even moderately electrified and carbon gets taxed over the next decade, the declines in inflation-adjusted pricing we've enjoyed over the past 25 years aren't likely to continue, and may trend the other direction for awhile. (Past performance is no guarntee of future returns on commodities like energy, eh?) The price over the past quarter-century has more to do with gains in efficiency of traditional electricity use have been a far bigger factor than drops in source-fuel pricing. Residential electricity use per capita has slowly climbed over that period in most places, but stayed flat or fallen in some higher-priced or more regulated markets such as CA, but a big new use or a carbon tax could make for some pretty fast shifts (as big as the effect of the shale-gas bonanza, but not in the same direction.)
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11 Mar 2011 08:55 PM
Your feet must be more talented than mine. Over 20 years, I didn't notice any difference between tile and carpet over uninsulated concrete downstairs and tile and carpet over wood decking upstairs. Had I done so, I would have added carpet rather than xps.

At $2/SF, R10 xps under a 2500 SF ranch is a significant outlay to me. Do I get more bang for that $5k from insulating under the slab or upgrading windows? I am thinking windows.
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12 Mar 2011 12:58 AM
I don't think you can generalize what is appropriate for "the south". The soil temp data for Dallas is sufficiently different than Auburn. We have a saying at my work, that "one data point is worth a thousand expert opinions". I just don't think the data supports the idea of heat rejection thru earth coupling for the Auburn Alabama climate. According to the USDA data, soil temps at 40 inches subsurface exceed 77F starting in mid-June and stay above this level until the first of October.

As far as cost goes, 2 inch XPS sheathing (R-10) was $0.67/ft2 at Home Depot today. 2 inch EPS (R-5) was $0.37/ft2. So, for a 2500 ft2 house, the $900 seems worth it to me to provide an insulated building boundary that accounts for 1/3 of the building envelope surface area.

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12 Mar 2011 08:28 AM
For those who struggle with the English language, as Snoslidr74 does, when you read "anecdotal evidence," it means don't generalize from this data.
My point was that Dana wasn't grasping the nuances of sunbelt construction. Neither is Snoslidr if he thinks the operative depth is 40 inches, and he doesn't put an asterisk after the third of building envelope business.*
My bad on the xps. It's a $1/sf around here, or $2.5k for the rancher in question.
Town Creek, you won't find a satisfactory answer to this question online, thanks in part to the Passivehaus purists. If you are going to rule out any fossil heat contribution, then you have also ruled out trade offs, even the net result is a wash, or close to it, after the heat pump cranks longer in some months and shorter in others.
If slabs are common in north Ala, your neighbors may be more help than Yankees.
*Subject to conductive heat loss rather than radiant or convective heat loss, which makes it an entirely different question.
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12 Mar 2011 09:08 AM
What's the name of the software for modeling the thermal performance of slabs? My guess is that you want to insulate the slab edges and extend this below grade for a couple feet.

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12 Mar 2011 08:31 PM
Thousands of homes in the Auburn AL area have been built without any insulation under the slab or around the edges.  I have lived in new homes in the Auburn area without the slab being insulated in any way.  I am not saying that is the best way to build for energy conservation or comfort.  Most builders in this area can not justify installing foam around the edges much less under the slab.  For my own home I would prefer that at least the edges be insulated.  I would also insulate somewhat under the slab if the budget can stand the hit.  I think the bottom line is the budget.  Energy conservation and comfort come in second and third to budget for most of my neighbors.
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13 Mar 2011 08:41 AM
I think code in Texas now is R5 insulation on the perimeter wall. But if slabs in Ala are built the same way, underslab insulation would mostly get you a crew of puzzled, very unhappy Spanish speaking gentlemen. (Dig a waffle grid of beams with a Ditch Witch; frame up the perimeter; lay cushion sand, plastic and steel; call the redimix plant.) The beams are the tricky part. Leave them bare and you haven't accomplished much. We are down maybe 24 inches. Poor drainage is another concern, even with xps. I am assuming that there is still no provision for drainage. Typically you want the opposite in no Texas. Because of expansive clays, homeowners install sprinkler systems around slabs to keep the soil from drying out and shrinking. Because of the clay, I wouldn't stray too far from standard practice without hiring an engineer.

While I am not answering Town Creek's questions about Auburn Ala here, neither are the folks who say, hey, it's only $900.
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13 Mar 2011 10:34 AM
Good question - how does one insulate a slab with beams?
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