Noob with some ideas, straw bale, solar, lots of questions
Last Post 25 Mar 2011 01:54 PM by Brian_Lunaris. 7 Replies.
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curtis73User is Offline
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15 Mar 2011 11:38 AM
I'm new to:

-home ownership
-green building
-home financing

I'm not new to:

-green living
-physics
-logic
-engineering

So, in a nutshell, my wife and I have long loved the industrial-type living.  We've lived in a loft, a warehouse, and even a 2-car garage for a while.  We have been looking to buy a house now for 2 years, partly because we're told its a "buyer's market," and partly because we just want to own instead of rent.  I have also had the dream of owning my own automotive shop, so...

Here's my plan (and keep in mind, this is the pie-in-the-sky, ultimate goal... I'm sure some will be shaved off the plans):

1) Purchase an existing commercial property with a pole shed in the 6000-8000 sq ft size range.
2) Enclose the pole shed using in-fill straw bale walls (or purchase an enclosed warehouse and insulate with a skin of bales).
3) Section off about 2000 ft of it using a bale wall to use as a 2br/2ba living space.

Then the plan includes multiple ideas of varying intelligence .

1) Elevated cistern capturing roof water to supply non-drinking water
2) Home-built photoelectric and solar heat panels covering the roof
3) I've even had some success building home-brew wind turbines, however my area of TX doesn't usually have a good wind supply.
4) Given the ample supply of free wood in the area, a supplemental fireplace for the living area and woodstove for the garage area will be implemented.  I know... wood isn't efficient, but its free, and it gets its carbon from up here, not down there

The plan is to stay on-grid, but have an ample bank of batteries and a modified sine wave inverter so I can sell any surplus back to the grid (if there is any).

So, I feel like I have a fairly good basic start - a well-insulated, sustainable-material building that recycles an existing structure and concrete, and some ideas for supplementing my energy consumption with solar and possibly wind.  SO HOW DO I DO IT?

-What are some resources I should research to find out if I can even do this legally in Austin, TX?  Who do I talk to to find out which forms of commercial zoning are fair game for single family in Austin?
-What about my plan seems to stand out to you as an error in design?  One of my luxuries is time.  I'm a master at finding freebies on Craigslist - recycled doors on the walls instead of drywall, reclaimed/surplus lumber, fixtures, etc.
-Are there any resources for automating this stuff I should know about?  Many of the "green" homes I've seen are remarkably "active," meaning you have to actively open valves to run hot water to the floor pipes for heating, or remember to turn on the pipe-wrap heater for the cistern supply pipe if its going to freeze.  I want a more "passive" experience or a more automated experience.  Aside from engineering it all myself, how does one get a more passive home?
nfcassidyUser is Offline
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15 Mar 2011 12:48 PM
my only question is why would you want to live in a commercial building, and in whatever neighbourhood the commercial building was built in??
curtis73User is Offline
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15 Mar 2011 01:14 PM
First, that's what we prefer. Second, not all commercial buildings are in commercial areas. Rural areas have plenty of that type of building being used as agricultural barns. One of the properties I'm looking at is on 8 acres about 6 miles from downtown and was most recently used as a horse veterinary clinic.

There is actually a lot of that type of home/commercial living down here. For example: http://www.cityfeet.com/Commercial/ForSale/AustinCommercialRealEstateLocal/9907-Oliver-Drive-Austin-TX-78736-16743100L0L0.aspx

That is a perfect example of what we want, but instead of paying $400k for it, I want to pay $20k for an eyesore property with a pole shed and build it green. That listing is actually very rural, but I wouldn't mind a bit closer to town.

Keep in mind, our favorite dwelling so far was a warehouse loft in downtown LA, so "commercial" and "city" don't bother us. In this case, we've chosen Austin to live since we can have the best of both... a rural/suburban setting with easy access to downtown.
BirdmanUser is Offline
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15 Mar 2011 01:44 PM
I can't comment in much detail as I am in the Northeast and the TX climates are not much forte. One bit of advice I'd offer is to focus on the fundamentals before answering the siren call of the high tech stuff. The fundamentals would be orientation, passive heating and cooling, shelter from wind, tight and well insulated building envelope, building for durability, water management. Get those ducks in a row before thinking about wind turbines and solar panels and complex technologies. The HVAC guys have a saying - "you can't condition what you can't contain". There is no point in pumping extra energy into a leaky building and it doesn't matter whether that energy is fossil or alternative.

If you want the warehouse type living who am I to criticize. But if you want to be energy efficient that volume will become an issue once you go to condition it since by definition it will have a lot of skin area. I don't know about the straw bales - I know they can work in the right place but where I live they'd be a steaming pile of moldy compost within a year! They may be ideal for TX. Read all you can, ask everyone not only what went right but what went wrong (sometimes alcohol helps pry that loose ) and carry a good contingency. Also, remember this forum as there are a lot of knowledgeable folks here willing to share a lot of good info. The more specific your questions the better the answers you'll get - but good on you for beginning the process now. Best of luck!!
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15 Mar 2011 02:48 PM
Good advice. I will be ironing out some of those finer points before I jump in, but I understand your logic. I just don't want to dive in only to find that the finer points are cost prohibitive. I want to be sure that what I want is within my reach (and by reach I mean "wallet")

I'm not too concerned about the climate of the shop part. Since about 2000' of the space will be fully enclosed by bale walls for living space, that's the only part I'm worried about controlling. A wood furnace in the garage space can take the edge off the cold and provide additional water/air heating for the living space I would think.

So far what I've figured out about bale construction is that its more dependent on the coating than anything else. Any insulation/wall material will be a rotted mess if you don't control the water, but I have researched several bale-wall structures with stucco/earthen coverings on the walls that have no more issues with water than a traditional stick home with stucco. It doesn't HAVE to be bale walls, but they sure seem to make the most sense and least expensive material given my geography. I could easily duplicate the R-value of it with more traditional building methods, but I'd rather buy $6000 worth of waste straw bales than $10,000 worth of freshly cut lumber.

I appreciate all the comments. I'm currently focusing on finding the location/structure. I'm focusing on finding a N-S orientation with the living space to be on the south end and either hills or trees on the E-W sides. That (along with a roof full of solar absorption) should capture as much heat as possible in the winter and avoid as much heat as possible in the summer.

Comments on orientation and construction?
BirdmanUser is Offline
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15 Mar 2011 05:49 PM
Not sure if your area is heating dominated or cooling. If it's heating dominant you'll want an E-W orientation. For cooling dominant the west exposure provides the hardest to control heat gain (sun is lower and strong so it's hard to shade - south side sun is intense but higher so easier to shade). If the climate is one that has hot days and cooler nights you might get some thermal mass and ventilate like crazy at night (sometimes called night purge) then coast during the day. Understanding the macro and micro climate of the site is really critical and should enter into your thinking about what to buy and what to figure for costs.

Also be careful about warehouse/industrial sites in terms of environmental issues - you don't want to spend your life savings buying a superfund site. I may cost you some $$ but I'd advise having some soils testing done and do all the research you can about past use of the site and any releases or spills on file with the DEM or DEP or whatever TX calls their enviro guys. Also have the building checked for lead, arsenic, mercury, asbestos, PCB's etc. (PCB's are now showing up in old caulking around windows) Asbestos isn't just in pipe insulation but can be in floor tile, mastic, damproofing, spray fireproofing, acoustic ceilings and even old joint compound. Remember too that "agricultural" doesn't necessarily mean pastoral and pristine - some of the truly nasty stuff is found on agricultural land - apples were sprayed with arsenic for decades in our area - there could be DDT, 2-4-D, Chlordane, Round-up, and a host of other goodies..... and that stuff may have been loaded, unloaded and spilled for years inside the building.

When you start poking around in industrial areas it would be a rare place that didn't have some contaminant - just go in with eyes wide open.

Also make sure the place has an insurable title as well, before you leap in. There may be a good reason it's only $20,000 (like the guy selling it doesn't really own it!)

One rule I use in looking at real estate is "pay for the things you can't control" Those would be a clean site, good location, solar access, buffer space, waterfront, etc. - those are worth paying for since you can't buy them later. Building defects are things you can control and fix later by throwing money at them. This rule is sort of a broader version of "location, location, location."

Don't mean to "harsh your mellow" but getting burned later is even harsher.









curtis73User is Offline
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15 Mar 2011 06:47 PM
Posted By Birdman on 15 Mar 2011 05:49 PM
Not sure if your area is heating dominated or cooling. If it's heating dominant you'll want an E-W orientation. For cooling dominant the west exposure provides the hardest to control heat gain (sun is lower and strong so it's hard to shade - south side sun is intense but higher so easier to shade). If the climate is one that has hot days and cooler nights you might get some thermal mass and ventilate like crazy at night (sometimes called night purge) then coast during the day. Understanding the macro and micro climate of the site is really critical and should enter into your thinking about what to buy and what to figure for costs.
Definitely cooling dominant. You can figure on needing light heat for two months minimum, three maximum, and even then its not bitter cold. If I set my Tstat to 68, it runs at night, but rarely during the day. We typically get a few light freezes during the winter, but 50s are common during the day in winter. Cooling is a big necessity. Summers last from April through October and we often have strings of three months of over 100 degrees every day. The climate is typically dryer than most, so summer nights do typically cool off more than one would expect. We have a small window A/C and can close off the bedroom if A/C is needed at night.

Also be careful about warehouse/industrial sites in terms of environmental issues - you don't want to spend your life savings buying a superfund site. I may cost you some $$ but I'd advise having some soils testing done and do all the research you can about past use of the site and any releases or spills on file with the DEM or DEP or whatever TX calls their enviro guys.

When you start poking around in industrial areas it would be a rare place that didn't have some contaminant - just go in with eyes wide open.
Very wise. When it comes to soil testing, that's actually something I can do. I have a biochem degree and envirochem was one of my fields of expertise... now if I can just find the numbers to my old buddies in the lab :)

Also make sure the place has an insurable title as well, before you leap in. There may be a good reason it's only $20,000 (like the guy selling it doesn't really own it!)

One rule I use in looking at real estate is "pay for the things you can't control" Those would be a clean site, good location, solar access, buffer space, waterfront, etc. - those are worth paying for since you can't buy them later. Building defects are things you can control and fix later by throwing money at them. This rule is sort of a broader version of "location, location, location."

Don't mean to "harsh your mellow" but getting burned later is even harsher.











You're not harshing any mellows... better to "harsh" them now than kick myself later. I'm combining multiple learning curves into ONE first home purchase. I need all the "harshing" I can get. I appreciate the time you're putting in your posts.
Brian_LunarisUser is Offline
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25 Mar 2011 01:54 PM
I realized that I wanted to something similar to what you want to do a while ago and I did some research on the various methods for building such a place. What I found was that I wanted to use straw bales because I liked the idea of using a waste product to build a very energy efficient home for cheap and what I found out was that it's probably not a very reasonable thing to attempt. The reasons being that depending on where you live getting such a structure approved by the local government, and insured by the insurance company, for code is probably going to be difficult because it's not a common method of building and the methods for building such a structure have a lot of variance in them. On top of that you have to actually find a decent source of bales, hope they are dried properly, do it in season so the time to get them is limited, then you have to get all the stuff required to actually seal them up so they don't get wet because if they do have moisture in them or manage to somehow get wet you are going to have a real issue and who the hell wants to deal with an issue like that after you have "finished" your house/building? Lets just say you couldn't even figure out what to do, who would you even look up in the phone book to even call at all? The local alternative building methods contractor?

To me, along with the amount of labor required to build such a structure and non standard methods of building all equaled too much variance and possible headache for the goal of saving some money and energy. So what I started doing was looking for something that was more uniform, less labor intensive, cheap, very energy efficient, as green as I could find meaning didn't require a lot of materials and energy to create and transport, been around a while, insurable, able to pass code and safe.

What I found was structural insulated panels or SIPs as they are commonly called. From what I can tell, I haven't built with these or know anyone who has so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but if you have any kind of a half assed construction background you should be able to do this with a few buddies or some hired hands in a couple days at most. Keeping the design of the building simple makes it easier to go up and cheaper to manufacture, IE no foyers, libraries, elaborate ceilings.

The electrical chases are already built into the walls so wiring is fairly simple and since you chose to kept the design simple the design of everything else is simple like outlets and switches and plumbing which all reduces cost. Depending on how you want the aesthetics and how much you want to spend on things like siding and roofing can vary wildly but I found that doing your own metal roof is very cost efficient and last a very long time and is so simple someone who has never done it before could do it, it's pretty much as easy as laying down some felt and keeping the panels straight when you lay them down and screwing them into the ceiling and using some mastic to bond the panels together to keep them water resistant. If you wanted you could use the same stuff for siding but I think that's a little TOO bleh for my tastes but it would certainly last a long time and be very cheap.

All this with a very well insulated concrete slab on grade and you have a extremely well insulated home, depends on the thickness of ceiling/walls and air tightness of the building results in a cheap building that's very cheap to live in and requires much less energy in the process. Oh and as far as the commercial building and living space issue, you could build a pole barn for the commercial part and the sip structure for your living. Depending on code you could build them right next to each other or one inside the other or far away from each other - whatever you want depending on code of course. If I were you I'd use the commercial building as a large sun shield being down in Texas and build them very close or one inside the other.
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